Tuesday, June 19, 2018

Innocent until proven GUILTY

From FB page of Shamsher Singh Thind:


Presumption of innocence does not mean that a person cannot be accused, investigated, arrested, remanded or charged in court.

It means that a person cannot be punished until he is found guilty.

So, Hanipa Maidin, you are wrong. This is a legal presumption. It applies all the time.



I have lots of respect for Hanipa (Amanah), but this time (on this issue) I have to agree with Shamsher 

You can accuse Najib Razak and demand an investigation against him. That is okay.

But you cannot say that he is guilty. "Guilty" is a legal term. You cannot use it in a non-legal context. No matter how badly you think Najib and his party have lost in the GE 14, he is innocent until proven guilty.


Earlier Malaysiakini had reported Sepang MP Hanipa Maidin saying that the maxim of "innocent until proven guilty" should only apply in certain contexts, specifically during the judicial process. He said:

“I am not saying that the principle or maxim is wrong. It is just that when it is being used frivolously, without context of the place, time and situation, it turns out funny."

Hanipa had said that while Najib hasn’t even been found guilty in the 1MDB case, the fact that the public has punished him and his party so badly in the general elections is proof of Najib's guilt in the "court of the people".

He averred, “So what is the message here? Simple. The logic of politics and of the law is not always the same.”

"Court of the people"??? I didn't realise we condone such vigilante stuff when we won't even allow hudud.

But Hanipa is actually admitting that the (il)logic, of Najib being guilty until proven innocent (instead of the other way around as per the English maxim), is one of politics and not of the law.

Thus Shamsher has rebutted him nicely by asserting:

But you cannot say that he is guilty. "Guilty" is a legal term. You cannot use it in a non-legal context. No matter how badly you think Najib and his party have lost in the GE 14, he is innocent until proven guilty.

And that proves Lim Kit Siang who jumped so obscenely in haste onto Hanipa Maidin's bandwagon was a bullshit opportunist or an opportunistic bullshitter.


ruminate on these topics you raised for 30 years and now so conveniently and opportunistically pretend to forget, you bloody chow-kau 

If one wants to talk of the "court of the people", we can refer to the example in late 18th Century France.

The Reign of Terror, or The Terror (French: La Terreur), is the label given by some historians to a period during the French Revolution after the First French Republic was established.


Between June 1793 and the end of July 1794, there were 16,594 official death sentences in France, of which 2,639 were in Paris. During this period of horror, the last Queen (and King) of France lost her pretty Austrian head, literally.


Is a similar 'Reign of Terror' what Hanipa Maidin want in Malaysia, though I'm certain his ape-r Lim Kit Siang does? It's doable as they already have their Hell-Hounds straining hungrily at their leashes.



30 comments:

  1. Hitler was never found guilty in a court of law. So therefore he is innocent of the crime of genocide against 6 million Jews.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you dearly omitted history in your schooling

      Delete
    2. Speaking of the devil....cheebye kaytee

      Delete
    3. Never heard of Nuremberg trials have you?

      Delete
    4. You have to be very afraid in whatever i say about u john. Nik aziz told me so about u

      Delete
    5. Again, I don't write but quote history:

      The three highest ranking Nazis tried at the Nurenberg trials were Albert Speer, Hermann Goering and Rudolf Hess. Hitler committed suicide earlier or had escaped to South America. Therefore, since he was never found guilty in a court of law, using the strange logic being propounded here, means he is innocent of war crimes and the court of public opinion doesn't count.

      Delete
    6. TS trying to twist again. In a court of law, you can only try a living person, which is why they tried & prosecuted Speer & Goering (suicide before sentencing), as both were successors to Hitler.

      A more apt trial would be the Tokyo War Crimes Trial, whereby the main star of Japan's involvement in WW2, Prime Minister Tojo -who did survived through the war-, was sentenced and hanged.

      Delete
    7. I didn’t quote Nuremberg trial, you did.

      Delete
    8. Because you brought up Hitler, when the right example is Tojo who was alive to stand trial for his war crimes. Did you know about that or were you deliberately pinpointing Hitler and conveniently left out Tojo for some reason?

      Delete
  2. They already are lining up criminal charges on Najib and hoping to see which sticks. Whether true or not is no longer important because, as they succinctly put it, "the people's vote have presumed him guilty, and we must hasten the verdict or we'll be caught in it". Reign of Terror indeed. Tyranny of the Loud Minority.

    If this works, I can foresee they will try this trick on Hadi as well. Be vigilant fellow Malaysians!

    ReplyDelete
  3. What about jibby did to anwar? Good grief!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Did jibby give a black eye to anwar?

      Delete
    2. But all the press pics from the time he went to jail until he went into hospital until his release, no black eye was evidenced and neither did he made any statements about it. You might be a clown humouring us with your fake news, but come on! At least keep it real dude.

      Delete
  4. At one time Shamsher Singh Thind actually ran for a position on the DAP Central Committee, but lost.
    He quit the DAP and has ever since been attacking DAP and Pakatan Harapan incessantly.

    I'm surprised he is still at it, his funding has probably run out by now.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. don't spin. he quit because he didn't agree with DAp working with mahathir. Stop your fitnah

      Delete
    2. And you didnt spin, kaytee? You can always swear to your mother's grave

      Delete
    3. And Pauline will dare swear on Looes's mother's grave that his tongue is par excellence. Hohohoho!

      Delete
    4. John......whatever you do will not have effect on me.....you should know why. Nik aziz told me to tell u to better stop it before too latr

      Delete
    5. And your Nick Aziz still owes me this weekend winning 4D number. Perhaps your mouth is too full of pubic hair to ask him that question, but at least try to make an effort.

      Delete
  5. Haiyah! So what if a court of opinion or public media already found Ahjibkor guilty. He won't be sentenced until a real court finds him guilty and sentenced him according to existing laws made by Parliament. I don't see any injustice done to Ahjibkor yet.

    OTOH, now Kaytee, please tell me why non-Moslems and non-Christians are already sentenced to Hell by all those bigoted Hell Hounds Moslem and Christian preachers.

    Why the double standard in espousing man made laws and God's laws. Why didn't Kaytee protest against such victimisation and segregation of religious believers?

    Who voted to pass all those God's Laws anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Every day new evidence comes up against Najib: Red Files, new witnesses like Suboh Mohd Yassin, the former SRC Director who was hiding for 3 years but is now given witness protection, Sirul in Sydney, of course the coup de grace will be that little piggy hiding overseas, when he is hog tied and brought back, squealing like a....well....pig and all those on the MACC Wanted List: Casey Tang,Jasmine Loo, Eric Tan etc.

    Tommy Thomas doesn't know where and when to start prosecution. But you see, there is no need to rush, the more evidence and witnesses the better. And in sync with the DOJ side of course. The Birkins and Rolexes have not even been valued yet, what's the delay Amar, need a bigger calculator?

    In the meantime we want to see "free and easy" LKS in action in Parliament 14, target of attack: Najib, who hopefully will be named Shadow FM and Chairman of PAC, deputised by Tony Pua. He better bring a big handkerchief everyday so he can wipe the sweat off his mustache as he is grilled but now has no one to protect him except Azalina. But he is all alone.

    I'm Lovin It !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But all we see is Najib taking it easy being cool as a cucumber, going on family trips here and there, enjoying his retirement like a Koala on a tree.

      Even Hadi is of the same opinion, whether by secular court or Islamic court or kangaroo court, if there's solid evidence, then charge him or else, Najib's free as a lark.

      The ones we see sweating buckets are from the Government side. With Mahathir's fury steaming the sweat on his forehead because there's nothing to pin Najib, Anwar sweating because he has to do damage control onto the newly minted Finance Minister, and the Finance Minister himself profusely sweating under the media glare for saying the wrong things all the time.

      Delete
    2. Ask kaytee....about ever seeing but not seeing...

      I suspect this ah neh kaytee may havr been dumped by catholic girl. Hence his hatred towards christianity

      Delete
  7. This kangaroo "court of public opinion" thing, such as trial by number of viral social media postings and forwardings, over teh tarik in 24-hour eateries, some of which wash their dishes in the toilet bowl and over beers in pubs - is what got me very, very, very tired and irritated by constant repetition of the same allegations against Najib, valid or fake, received by someone who received it from someone who received it from someone who received it from someone who received it from someone......... .

    I'm not saying that those allegations could not be true but that there must be sufficient evidence to try and successfully convict Najib of such wrongdoing or of involvement in such wrongdoing and those who had expected that Najib would have been arrested within days of the new Pakatan government coming to power must now be very disappointed that Prime Minister Mahathir is saying the same think that I had been saying all along - i.e. there must be sufficient evidence to bring a water tight case against Najib which has a very strong chance of resulting in a conviction in a court of law practicing rule of law.

    That said, a Reign or Terror for a year or so ala Maxmilien Robespierre and Louis Antoine Léon de Saint-Just may not be a bad thing in that it will enable the efficient purge of the corrupt and rot which has built up over the dacades of BN rule, just like the occasional cleansing of the bowels rids the body of toxins.

    They could install Madame Guillotine in Dataran Merdeka - the favourite rallying point favoured by Pakatoon protestors to carry out such social cleansing before the cheering public, not only of former leading public figures in high positions of government but also of minor public officers, such as the enforcement officer who put a parking ticket on your car whilst you were looking for a working parking payment machine to buy your parking coupon from.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You do realised that the Reign of Terror grew into such an uncontrollable monster that it consumed its creator, Robespierre, as well?

      It wasn't so much as cleansing but more of bloodletting. Its just an animistic bloodlust ritual, plain and simple.

      Delete
    2. If it kenna makan by what john said, it sheiss should kill himself

      Delete
    3. Whoa! Looes seemed to have partake some sanity pills for this comment, but this time I agree with him. Those who proposed a Reign of Terror should learn from its dark, anarchic history. It never ended well for anyone on any sides.

      Delete