Tuesday, January 13, 2009

Hudud, the genie who won't return to the bottle

In Malaysiakini Stanley Koh wrote MCA hypocrisy over hudud in KT campaign.

Stanley was referring to the MCA ‘playing up’ on the hudud issue when Husam Musa of PAS acknowledged that the Islamic Party still wants to implement the Islamic legislation of punishments for specific crimes.

Anwar Ibrahim had assured the non-Muslims that the hudud isn’t applicable to them but as we read in Malaysiakini news article
Karpal: Anwar's statement on hudud misleading good olde Karpal Singh, chairperson of the DAP, said Anwar’s claim is bull.

Karpal also warned that it’s unconstitutional for PAS or PKR to implement the hudud.

Anyway, Stanley Koh had sneered at the same MCA whom he said had barely whimpered in protest when former PM Dr Mahathir declared in September 2001 that “Malaysia is already an Islamic state”.

But Stanley also (fairly) wrote Dr Ling (former leader of the MCA) had asserted that, whatever name Mahathir had chosen to describe the country, the federal constitution has not changed.

I have always said that Dr Mahathir's declaration of Malaysia as an Islamic state was a political manoeuvre to outflank PAS, by out-Islamising the Islamic Party.

But the hudud is a completely different ballgame altogether. As I had posted in The Fatwa of Khalsa warrior Karpal Singh, there are prescribed (mandatory) and very severe punishments for ‘crimes’ such as ‘zina’ or illegal sexual intercourse, where the offenders, if they happen to be mature, married Muslims, will be stoned to death – yes, death because that’s what ‘capital punishments’ mean.

Muslim bachelors or non-Muslims get flogged instead. Did you get that, about non-Muslims getting flogged? So I wonder whether Anwar Ibrahim knows what he has been talking about …. but then he’s Anwar!

Now, some non-Muslims hate UMNO so much that they have dismissed the hudud issue as a BN scare tactic to sabotage the PAS candidate, and will, regardless of PAS hudud, still vote for Abdul Wahid Endut of PAS.

So far so good – a case of either believing or disbelieving Anwar Ibrahim’s assurance that the hudud will NOT affect non-Muslims.

Like Karpal Singh, I don’t ;-) wakakkakakakaka, not because he is Anwar (admittedly I never did trust Anwar Ibrahim ever since he was Education Minister) but because once the hudud genie is out, we can never ever get it back into the bottle.

But alas, thus far it has all been about non-Muslims, hasn’t it?

(A) Anwar said hudud won’t apply to ‘us’ non-Muslims – we believe him, or

(B) Anwar said hudud won’t apply to ‘us’ non-Muslims – we don’t believe him!

But what about the Malays?

Are we assuming every Malaysian Muslim (Malay and non-Malays) automatically support the implementation of hudud?

Have we even asked any of them?

No, not according to Hafiz Noor Sham who wrote an articulate piece in the Malaysian Insider titled Time to kill it, meaning the idea of implementing hudud should be ‘killed’. He wrote:

The problem with the argument that hudud affects only Muslims assumes that all Muslims are for the implementation of hudud.

I definitely would not mind if hudud is implemented as long as individuals, and not communities, can choose between hudud – and truly, sharia – and secular civil law.

Under the current proposal, I and many others do not get that choice.

I have also mentioned this but, just to stress it again, the argument that non-Muslims need not worry with the implementation of hudud also builds unnecessary walls among Malaysians, further dividing an already divided society.

Furthermore, it is hard to imagine how the minority will be left unaffected if there is great development within the majority community.

If the non-Muslims are prepared to buy that argument set forth by Pas and PKR that hudud only concerns Muslims while ignoring the fact that under the proposal, Muslims who prefer a secular environment instead would be forcefully subjected to religious laws, well, perhaps we all should turn blind eyes to each other’s problems.

If my problem is not yours, then the discrimination that the non-Malays suffer is not my problem either. Each time you suffer injustice, too bad because it shall not be mine. Those are non-Muslim problem and so, why should I care at all?

Is that the new arrangement you prefer? Shall we make that the basis of our social contract, our new Constitution?

If the answer is no, then Pas must lose in Kuala Terengganu. It is regrettable that the implication is victory for BN, especially when it is becoming clear that BN has learned nothing from March 8.

Nevertheless, I am unwilling to sacrifice my ideals for too much political expediency. There is such a thing as a limit and this whole issue on hudud, and especially the argument brought forward by Pas and supported by PKR, has gone over and beyond mine.

Hafiz considers a vote for PAS as a vote for hudud, as well as a total disregard by non-Muslims for the considerations of Muslims who do not want hudud.

What say you to his appeal ... and let's have a bit of intelligent debate instead of the usual fanatical mauling of him (or anyone who disagrees with or does not support Anwar Ibrahim) as an UMNO stooge ;-)

... unless of course you are not up to it wakakakakakakakaka


    WHY ??

    WHY ??

  3. Some time i was wonder Hudud is to punish the offender or the victim.

    a woman who reports she has been raped will be charged for qazaf and flogged 80 lashes if she is unable to present clear evidence to prove the rape.

    Also down graded the women status, as Hudud enactment disqualification of women as witnesses in all cases of hudud and

    So it so happen that the guilty person can easily release from punishment and an innocent ppl wrongly to be convicted, regrettably they are always women and the poor. This so happen in Islamic Africa country and some other places in Asia and Arab.

    For those who intend to do conversion will classify as apostasy, under current Malaysia law they will sentence for one-year compulsory rehabilitation instead of death, this will be difference if follow the enactment.

    all over these, i don't scare with Hudud because of religious discrimination that non Muslim have right to select whichever law he wishes to be tried under. If he think he will be acquit under hudud, just go for it! But i more worry about the economy, foreign investor might retreat after we really go for hudud.

  4. Hudud is only applicable when every women are dresses like NINJA and stay at home.

    If not those women will be considered provoking other "Gentlemen"!

  5. Is hudud necessary for forcing Muslims to follow the Quran? Why not just educate and let them follow the Quran willingly?

    And then just enforce the current laws more effectively by taking out corrupt judges?

    Why kill the entire set of laws that lawyers are still grappling with and studied for years to master?

    Who are the judges and lawyers, juries and executioners that will implement hudud law? Did ulamaks go through decades of internationally-certified exams to make sure they are competent? Can they really be better than professionally-trained lawyers?

    Seems like the practicality of it is not considered at all, it is just making use of Islam for egoistic grandstanding. Are they not abusing Islam and making it inferior by saying the religion can't make Muslims behave without a court?

  6. I'm far more worried about the steady, increasingly restrictive Islamisation which has been carried out in this country by the BN government, without any need for constitutional amendment, usually via executive fiat by Federal, State and Local governments.
    It is slowly but surely helping to break up this country's inter-racial cohesion.

    As I mentioned before, I'm no fan of Anwar Ibrahim, partly because while in government, he was one of the prime movers of this termite-like Islamisation program.

    Ktemoc - "Dr Mahathir's declaration of Malaysia as an Islamic state was a political manoeuvre to outflank PAS" - its not as harmless as it sounds from this statement.

    As I stated above, much of the steadily more restrictive Islamisation has occured via executive fiat. The very powerful PM, whom Mahathir was, declaring Malaysia as an Islamic state, was taken as a cue by sundry government officials, senior and junior to implement government policy in that framework.

    Just as an example, the destruction of many Hindu temples which BN either blatantly carried out or condoned prior to the March 08 tsunami was very much an outcome of such decision making paradigm in the government machinery.
    Ditto the unreasonable and highly restrictive conditions and obstacles placed against applications to construct new non-Muslim places of worship.
    By the way, the PAS-run Kelantan state government has been far more accomodating in this respect than UMNO-controlled states.

    Now to Hudud.

    Yes, Hudud would be a radical, quantum leap and would require a constitutional amendment. There are not , and will not likely be enough votes to make such a constitutional amendment, BN or PR, unless we end up with a pure UMNO-PAS coalition in power.

    So to Kuala Terengganu. I'm not a voter there, so I can only contribute idle comment.

    It is important that BN be defeated in Kuala Terengganu, to ensure that the pressure to reform the government policies and actions continues.

    Hudud is an important issue to debate in the medium to long run, but to me the current controversy is a "manufactured crisis" which started when Husam Musa fell for KJ's trap.

  7. Not surprised that Ktemoc is praying for an umno victory in KT.

  8. I believe the gloating will be sickeningly unbearable should either side win. And the thrash talk ensuing will make anyone who voted in favour of the winner seriously doubt their choice made. And the difference the election will make to our current political situation.. none. For me it's literally choosing between lesser idiots.

    But if I had to make a choice.


    I'd take everything PR is saying with a pinch of salt and still vote for them. Reason? When I voted for PR in March, it was not like I believed they would give me free education, abolish tolls or classify me as 'poor' because I earned RM2K a month.

    In that spirit, I'm simply not going to believe they will implement the Hudud laws. It's just one of the many "non-core" promises PAS makes every election.

    -Decision the Malaysian way.

  9. During the course of this coming year, many of us will either lose their job, be worried about losing their job, or see a serious reduction in their income or value of their investments.

    Couldn't care a less about arguing around Hudud...Chiak Thai Pah...

  10. I think we should have a referrendum to kill it off once and for all. Even if you limit it to just Muslim voters, I bet it would fail to win 2/3rd support, which in principle is what would be required, in the spirit of honoring the constitution, although that of course would in itself be a massive concession to the Islamists, since this is an issue that impacts all Malaysians and so all Malaysians should get to vote.

  11. Anon of 9:18 AM, January 14, 2009 said "Not surprised that Ktemoc is praying for an umno victory in KT."

    This is the sort of reaction and nonsensical bad mouthing which smacked of intolerance and a fanatically closed mind that precisely makes the hudud dangerous for us.

    Apart from that, I differ from my colleagues that we must keep the reform momentum going by voting in KT for PAS and against UMNO.

    It's dangerous to dismiss the threat of hudud where only the clerics can decide on whether you or your loved ones will be stoned, have your limbs amputated or be decapitated.

    Then, I ask - what reforms are we talking about? For a start I personally do not see the de facto leader of PKR as a model of reforms, someone who cakap ta'serupa bikin.

    His conduct in this regard (eg. his frog hunting) has been an unmitigated shame; then, where was his promised disciplining of the Kulim thug? Deforms maybe but reforms? Let's not kid ourselves.

    Then, a PAS with Pak Haji Hadi Awang and his fraction cannot be trusted even as an Islamic Party because he's also ethnocentric, unlike Pak haji Nik Aziz. So don't be surprised when he has monopoly of power 'after' Pak Haji Nik Aziz leaves us, he may do a deal with UMNO where the implementation of hudud could well be a bargaining chip. I put Anwar in this same category of eventually working with, if not rejoining UMNO.

    Reforms lie only with the DAP, a future PKR minus Anwar and his core group, PSM and the (still under legal dispute over its status) PRM!

  12. It is necessary to hand BN a defeat in Kuala Terengganu to keep the pressure for reforms.

    We have a seriously corrupt and decadent regime in power in Putrajaya, and there are really only two ways to get reforms - either the ruling party is forced to institute reforms under the threat of electoral oblivion
    the ruling party is sent to the opposition benches - via the ballot box, of course.

    The available vehicles, other than DAP - PAS and perhaps PKR are not ideal, but I think the main difference is I do not share your antipathy towards Anwar Ibrahim, though I am definitely not a fanboy.

  13. My attitude towards PKR and Anwar is like taking a public bus.

    I neither like nor dislike the bus.
    If they are going roughly the same way I want to go, I will continue to sit on the bus. If it doesn't look like they are keeping to the route, that's where I get off.

    Hudud will need a 2/3 majority in Parliament. It won't happen. I haven't lost any sleep over Hudud.

  14. Vote BN - the reliable, dependable and moderate party

  15. Elections, are, unfortunately a zero-sum game, unless you chose not to vote at all, which I don't count as a responsible choice.

    So its down to BN, PAS or the independent.
    The independent would basically be a wasted vote.

    Me, vote for BN, after the putrid display of electoral vote buying in the last two weeks ? And the way the Mentri Besar practically threatened the Chinese community yesterday ?

    NO WAY !

    I will be making the long drive back to KT tomorrow morning...and PAS is my choice, warts, Hudud and all...

  16. Good to be here!
    I have to agree with Observer, while Ktemoc has some sensible points.

    My 2 sen would be that while we hold armchair debates on hudud, which I believe remains a distant and remote possibility as long as Nik Aziz and the Erdogan faction are among us, we should focus on the current legal system.

    ISA, OSA, PPPA, UUCA, Dangerous Drugs Act and Emergency Ordinance (among others) are here to turn Malaysia into a hidden police state. While hudud requires a constitutional amendment and deep changes (at last, thanks to the latest General Elections), the above laws are fully in place. They mean most public documents are hidden from public access for fancy reasons, people are put into jail for indefinite time for little justification, editors and students have to lick BN barons and so on and so forth. To me, this requires much more attention than hudud.

    Likewise, in the dual justice system we are now living in with some civil (inheritance, divorce, etc.) and criminal law ("apostasy", drinking alcohol etc.) being used as a cruel divider in the Malaysian society.
    Just allow these two examples: how many spouses and children of secret Muslim converts will be expelled from their home by JAKIM and the like this year? Does caning tally with beer drinking while corrupt UMNO freely exhibits its wealth and corrupt ways (eg F class contractors' lucky draw in KT).

  17. UMNO-run government already imposes cruel and inhumane punishments under Islamic law - this one in Pahang.

    Pahang Syariah court sentences Six strokes of the Rotan for Muslim couple for consuming alcohol in Public - including the Woman

  18. DAP supporting PAS candidate who's party want to implement Hudud law, and DAP promoting it to the chinese in KT. People have short memories, forgotten what the Taliban have done to Afghanistan, SIGH!!!!.........

    Malaysian politics is exactly like the many Chinese movie, Heros and heroines rise and team up to support supposedly a virtuous leaders with good causes, together they fought to dethrone the devil. But later these people have to fight a more difficult battle to bring down those leaders they supported when their leaders turn out to be demon. At the end very few survive and the cycle repeated again and again.

    I am no hero. after all the experience of PR governing five states and denying BN the two third majoring is bitter lessons for me, In the last ten months I have seen a lot, the people clearly have been deceived by DAP and PK, now I am backing MCA. UNMO and MCA can have the take, I don't care as long as I can survive, but with the trouble making PR many people are dying.........

  19. The stress which many businesses are facing today has little to do with alleged "trouble making" by PR, a lot more to do with the financial crisis in the major Western economies.

    If you must find someone local to blame, you might as well blame the BN regimes which ran the five states up to a short 10 months ago, and BN had run them for the last 50 years.

    I hardly equate PAS with the Taliban. This trivialises the murderous nature of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan when it was in power.

    "UMNO and MCA can have their take...as long as I can survive" - that's precisely the kind of mentality which BN to rob the country blind for the last 50 years...

    You make me want to vomit

  20. Hm, on the outset... Kuala Trengganu is a situation of being trapped between the devil & the sea. A choice between a ethnocentric party & a theocratic party... though the majority of its voters are your heartland Muslim Malays.

    Looking closer however, PAS is willing to sit down & discuss... while UMNO has (and still has) this "my way or the highway"/"u tak suka u keluar" attitude.

    Also, UMNO will not hesitate to jump on the hudud bandwagon later on if they think its what it takes to out-Islamize PAS. Pakatan at least has 2 parties that are able to veto PAS... while the BN component parties are just dragged around by Tuan Besar UMNO.

    If UMNO wins, it will think it has been accepted back & continue with its arrogant racial attitude. Thats why I'm a little partial towards a PAS win on Saturday.

    But lets see how it goes...

  21. Brighteyes, your "Pakatan at least has 2 parties that are able to veto PAS" may not be all that reliable as Karpal Singh has just lambasted Anwar for acquiescing to PAS' hudud.

    I don't blame Anwar so much for his desire to avoid offending the conservative Muslims/Malays as for his fallacious 'assurance' to non Muslims that "hudud is OK coz it's not applicable to them" - that's patently not correct with Karpal Singh describing Anwar's misleading assurance as a fallacy (a deceptive, misleading, or false notion).

    Anwar hasn't changed from his UMNO ways/days - I believe when push comes to shove, he will let the Pakatan Rakyat supporters down.

    But while I, as someone who has voted for the DAP, would and should logically support PR to win, I believe the KT by-election has to be an exception as it has unfortunately transformed into a indirect plebiscite (despite PAS and PKR denials) on non-Muslims' attitude towards PAS' intention to implement hudud.

    If PAS wins, it will lay claim that non Muslims have indicated their acceptance of Sharia laws for Malaysia. Hence I am not supporting PAS on this particular by-election.

    As I discussed with a friend last night, we need to look at the bigger pictrure because if we worry about and just focus on the UMNO musang stealing our chickens, we may allow the hudud python to sneak up and swallow us whole.

    As I had blogged, hudud as a code of legal punishment, once accepted (mnore so by non Muslim Malaysians, would be like a draconian genie who won't and can't be made to return to the bottle.

  22. Lets look at the reality of the numbers.

    Apart from the Malay heartland in Kelantan and Kedah, there is no PR state government which can be formed without DAP and/or substantial non-Muslim support. Same with any imaginable PR Federal Government, if it wins the next GE.

    So DAP effectively holds a veto over any Hudud moves by PAS or even PKR. The only way they can get pass this and get the needed Constitutional amendement - is if they form a Super-Muslim coalition of UMNO-PAS-PKR (without its non-Muslim support-which is substantial).

    Look, if the Muslims in Malaysia EVER get sufficient consensus on this issue to want Hudud, there is nothing the DAP and the non-Muslims can do to block it anyway.
    By that time, we would have effectively become another Pakistan.

    It won't happen in my lifetime, or even yours. Nothing is impossible, of course. If that happens, I should just go back to my ancestor's land in Balik Pulau and plant fruit trees, forget about politics and just wait for my time to come...

  23. Our political principles, commitment and support shouldn't work the way. We have to be unequivocal about what we stand for. If we (Muslims as well as non Muslims) do not accept hudud, we must send an unequivocal message, in the same principled manner that Karpal Singh has done.

    We cannot on one hand, for example, sympathise with and support the cause of Lina Joy, and then, in hypocritical fashion, do a volte-face when it comes to the unofficial plebiscite on hudud in Kuala Terengganu.

    We would be virtually saying to Lina Joy, tough shit sweetie, we are politically supporting your execution for apostacy coz we want to vote for PAS in order to keep alive a so-called reform (the obscene irony being that the so-called Mr Reformasi has demonstrated examples of deformed politics rather than reformed politics).

    We can rationalise all we want with the number games but once the hudud proponents have a foot in the door, we will see the beginning of the end of secular/civil laws, and not long after, perhaps even the Saudi way of having regular decapitations after Friday mosque prayers, at the whims and fancies of the local ayatollahs.

  24. I am unequivocal in my principles and what I stand for.

    I oppose the corruption and decadence which the Barisan Nasional government stands for and will continue to do so.

  25. Its sheer hypocrisy to call to support UMNO in KT over the huddud issue.

    Does UMNO oppose Huddud ? NO !

  26. I love this shot by Haris Ibrahim

    PAS vs. DAP ? - Take a look

  27. KT

    I am in full agreement with you here. How can Anwar the GSOS support Hudud laws(even though he claims it is only for Muslims) when on the other hand he speaks so passionately about civil society, human rights, freedom of speech and other First World democratic ideals ? While he would like us to believe that only he could lead Malaysia into 21st century, but his support for Hudud indicates that DSAI more likely will drag us back to the 15th century.

    The suggestion that people should vote for PAS in order to punish UMNO is not just idiotic but also will be a highly dangerous "shoot-ourselves-in-the-feet" policy to pursue. If UMNO wins, it will make no difference as this seat was held by them before. But if PAS wins, this will give them more confidence and stronger leverage over DAP. Worse still, if the KT Chinese ignore the Hudud issue and vote PAS, these Malaysian Talibans likely to view the vote as an endorsement of the Chinese community for Hudud.

    DAP already having problem managing Anwar and PAS from implementing Hudud and by increasing the PAS representation in the Parliament will only make their jobs harder. UMNO might be morally and materially bankrupt but they have proven over the last 51 years that they would not implement Hudud. However, PAS and PKR have clearly will make Malaysia an Islamic Republic ala Afganistan (under Taliban) or Iran if they form the Federal government.

    I believe DAP's strategy of supporting PAS is a short-sighted one that will one day prove to be highly damaging to the party.

  28. Observer said:

    "Apart from the Malay heartland in Kelantan and Kedah, there is no PR state government which can be formed without DAP and/or substantial non-Muslim support."

    I wish this were true, but sadly I don't think it is. "Ketuanan Melayu" governments could arise in Perak at least, and possibly in Selangor as well, if UMNO were to somehow forge an alliance with PAS.

    But Ktemoc, I am in complete disagreement with you here. I don't think a vote for PAS is a vote for Hudud. It can't be, seeing as DAP is in the thick of it, while at the same time Karpal is playing secularist fullback with such tenacity. DAP is anti Hudud, of that there is no doubt, right? With DAP campaigning for PAS in KT, it becomes clear (to me at least) that this is *not* a referrendum on Hudud.

    If you really trust DAP, why second guess them on this? A boycott (or at least a half-hearted campaign contribution ala-Anwar Ibrahim in Machap) was looking imminent until very recently, so it's not like they had no choice but to kowtow to the PR groupthink and campaign in KT. When push came to shove, DAP is putting up the goods, and that should be acknowledged, otherwise this is a repeat performance of 1999 when DAP, of all parties, suffered for the faults of others, which is clearly a warped and self-defeating logic.

    PAS' leverage over DAP comes in the form of PKR, which is why DAP's efforts must be rewarded.

  29. Int, unfortunately, as for all political parties practising robust democratic ideals, like the DAP does, there cannot always be only-sokong-sokong-sokong-the-leader-regardless as we see in a certain party.

    Karpal Singh as the chairperson of the DAP has already threatened to pull the DAP out of the Pakatan Rakyat if PAS and more importantly PKR do not retreat from PAS’ avowed intention to implement the hudud when it comes to power - see http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/96415

    Yet, Lim GE and Teresa Kok and a few others are still campaigning enthusiastically for PAS as part of the PR unified effort. Obviously, like you and observer, they see the objective of defeating UMNO as far more important than the need to stand against PAS’ hudud intention

    Lim KS has spoken out against the hudud but he has been less unequivocal as Karpal, so I would say he stands somewhere between political principles and political pragmatism.

    I stand with Karpal Singh as I see a greater danger in the hudud than UMNO corrupt rule.

    Thus, we cannot assume the entire DAP is committed to PAS winning despite its avowed intention to implement the hudud when it comes to power.

    On a separate issue, you have been right to point out Anwar’s half-hearted and insincere campaigning for DAP in the Machap by-election, but that’s hardly surprising because Anwar hasn’t been and still isn’t sincerely enthusiastic about the PR or anyone, unless it’s about him, him and himself.

    To Anwar, the PR is merely a convenient platform, to be used as a pressure foil against UMNO, for him to leverage himself back into UMNO.

    It is in these highly differentiated commitments (by DAP for its coalition partners as opposed to that by Anwar and PKR for DAP) that I see the truth in what you said about DAP's disaster in 1999: DAP, of all parties, suffered for the faults of others, which is clearly a warped and self-defeating logic: because in years to come (perhaps in 2013), when the non-Muslim and even many Muslim voters are looking for the culprit behind PAS successful push for hudud, it’ll be the DAP (by then, perhaps minus the party’s stalwart Karpal Singh) who will cop it sweet.

  30. Side issue, but relevant since we are talking about the Kuala Terengganu by-election.

    The Mongolian witch refuses to rest in peace.

    Azilah says Najib's ADC instructed him to help Razak Baginda

    Last 1 1/2 days of campaigning, and Najib becomes an issue again - The curse of the Mongolian witch

  31. witch? what a terrible hurtful description of a woman murdered.

    help Razak Baginda? does that mean Najib's guilty of murder? there's more wishful hope here than reason, logic or evidence - wakakakakakakakaka

  32. Ktemoc,
    Don't be too quick to dismiss this. It doesn't mean Najib's guilty of murder.

    But it means there is strong reason to believe he is somewhere involved in Altantuya's death. His ADC definitely needs to be his witness. Unless the ADC swears he acted in his personal capacity (which opens him to prosecution), we have to go up the chain of command.

  33. ;-) this is ridiculous - why would Najib's ADC be open to prosecution? for what?

    ... for asking a fellow police officer to help Baginda regarding a woman harassing him?

    Sure am glad you guys aren't in power if that's how you prosecute or more correctly, persecute your opponents!

  34. In case you have forgotten, a person got blown to bits as a result of that "help".

    In a less politically-controlled jurisdiction, e.g. Australia, where I believe you are now residing, the person who arranged that "help" would be facing some very serious questions indeed.
    The best advice to him would be to get a good lawyer, pronto.

  35. that's a pretty long long long jump of conclusion, from 'helping' to 'blowing up a woman'. As I had said, I'm glad you guys aren't in power if that's how you persecute your opponents to prosecute them.

  36. "how you persecute your opponents to prosecute them."

    In case you haven't notice, your favoured BN has been doing that for donkeys years...

  37. and didn't you claim you would be better than them? How?