Saturday, October 19, 2013

The elephant in the room

Continuing my take on the Allah-word controversy which I blogged on in my previous post Alamak, the Allah-word again? I believe the Appeals Court ruling has been specifically on the legality of the Home Minister's decision to prohibit The Herald, the Catholic Church weekly newsletter (or paper) in Malaysia, using the word 'Allah' to refer to the Christian god in its Bahasa Malaysia section.

Let's put the microscope directly over the relevant specifics of the Appeals Court ruling again, namely:

  • The Home Minister can rule
  • That The Herald cannot use the Allah-word
  • in The Herald's Bahasa Malaysia section

Read my lips - Home minister can rule (Court won't intervene/interfere) that The Herald cannot use the Allah-word in its Bahasa Malaysia section!

Both sides of the bloody political fence plus various other 'interests' have been equally unscrupulous in exploiting this Court's ruling to the most preposterous, outrageous and disgraceful n-th degree for their own gains - political, religious or whatever - by ignoring the specifics of the ruling.

Instead they have expanded and reinterpreted the Court's ruling to cover every nook and corner of Malaysia and Malaysian lives, and even talked of pending implications for the Islamic and non-Islamic world - a sad case of booming that all doom and gloom are looming.

The 4 horses of Apocalypse may even appear, wakakaka

F* it man, the previous Home Minister hasn't ruled that the Allah-word cannot be used by non-Muslims, but only by The Catholic Herald and even then, only in its Bahasa Malaysia section. And that's what the Appeals Court has ruled on, namely the Home Minister's right in prohibiting The Catholic Herald from using the Allah-word in its (now very carefully read this) Bahasa Malaysia section.

That's precisely what former Perlis Mufti, Dr Mohd Asri Zainul Abidin, had said, that it was 'not a big issue' because of the specific ruling, advising both Muslim and Christian groups not to exaggerate the matter as both the (previous) Home Minister's decision and the Appeals Court ruling on it were only confined to the Malay language section of The Herald.

He said: "Maybe the ruling was made to avoid any sort of provocation and it is not based on Islam because Islam has no restrictions on Christians using the word Allah."

But many Muslim leaders have ignored his good and fair advice, people like Mohd Nooh Gadut, the Johor Mufti, who warned Muslims against questioning the Court of Appeal ruling on the 'Allah' word issue, and that by doing so they risk being deemed a kafir or an apostate.

Brilliant, isn't he, making a ruling of the secular Appeals Court into a Islamic fatwa. Eat your heart out, Ayatollah Khomeini (dead as you might be).

And talking about fatwa, Dr Abdul Shukor, chairman of the National Fatwa Council, went into orgasmic delight on hearing the Court’s ruling, claiming beyond the boundaries of the judicial ruling that it was in line with a 2008 fatwa which stated the word ‘Allah’ was sacred and specific to Islam and the Muslim community, and should not be used by non-Muslims.

Apart from his obvious hijacking and creative reinterpretation of the Court's ruling, I just wonder how an Islamic fatwa would apply to non-Muslims?

Then we get the loony right in Ikatan Muslimin Malaysia (ISMA) telling Christians to emigrate if they cannot accept the sovereignty of Islam and the king in Malaysia after the Courts's ruling, in which they (ISMA), not unlike Dr Abdul Shukor, claimed that the word 'Allah' is exclusive to Muslims.

Dumbos, that's exactly what Sabah pollie Jeffery Kitingan wants, except our Jeffery boy thinks even bigger, like emigrating the entire states of Sabah and Sarawak, especially the former, out of Malaysia, wakakaka.

Thus why should we be surprised to hear him, in reality a political insignificant in the overall Malaysian political landscape, talking about secession because of the Court's ruling and its feral and unnecessary bigoted wake caused by ultras like ISMA, which (the secession) if realized may make him presumably more significant - methinks he wishes, wakakaka.

He must have been grinning when he suggested to Ah Jib Gor that should the PM accept the calls of a Muslim-based NGO (presumably the moronic ISMA, wakakaka) for Malaysian Christians to leave the country if they cannot bear to accept the sovereignty of Islam, it would then be time to start disengagement talks and allow Sabah and Sarawak to depart Malaysia, wakakaka.

He pontificated openly: "There is no point in retaining Sabah and Sarawak within the Federation of Malaysia when the ultra-Malays in Malaya keep trying to break it up and without any appropriate response or with the silent acquiescence from the federal government."

Also read my post Will Sabah secede?

Sabah's flag in 1963, when it was actually independent
for two weeks prior to 16 September 1963

Will it fly again?

Those ISMA idiots in making their bigoted comments didn't even know what the Court's ruling has been about, and which didn't mention anything about the sovereignty of Islam nor that of HM the Agong, nor about the Allah-word being exclusive to Muslims.

Wakakaka, then PAS-reject Nasharuddin Mt Isa pushed his (note 'his' and not 'the') Islamic envelope by suggesting (hopefully or provocatively?) that the Court's ruling would set a legal precedent that could be applied to Sabah and Sarawak, where the Christians there currently have the right to use Allah in their Malay-language Bible.

This is despite the government stating the Home Minister's or Court's ruling does not apply to Sabah and Sarawak, though unsurprisingly Pakatan politicians are insisting it does, thus indirectly agreeing with Nasharudin, wakakaka.

Needless to say, we have the Mufti of Kelantan, Mohamad Shukri Mohamad, eagerly joining the right wing bandwagon to warn non-Muslims in his state from using Allah in their worship as they could face action under the Control and Restriction of the Propagation of Non-Islamic Religions Enactment 1981, and in typical ketuanan hooliganism, threatened [as in his, "… did not rule out the possibility of …"] a backlash from Muslims if non-Muslims continued to use the word Allah.

This bloke is a wee too fond of quoting from this or that Enactment to threaten people. Recall seven years ago in 2006, when he (then only the deputy mufti of Kelantan) told Berita Harian that wives would be deemed to be unjust and abusive if they cannot satisfy their husbands' sexual needs.

Abusive in sexual needs?

In his (note ‘his’ and not 'the') most brilliant exposition of Islamic doctrines, he explained that in a marriage, it's not always the wives who were abused as it could also happen to the husbands. He advised that Islamic laws protect both women and men.

He warned: "Thus wives who do not provide proper care for their husbands, including not fulfilling their sexual needs, can be considered as being unjust and abusive towards their husbands."

"These women can be charged under Section 128 (1) of the Kelantan Islamic Law Enactment 2002, which provides for a fine of RM 1,000 or jail of up to six months or both upon conviction."

But in a manner not unusual to either important big shots (CEOs, etc) or impossible big bullshitters, he skipped the details, yup, by neglecting to elaborate on how the courts would determine any husband’s claims of his wife failing to satisfy his sexual needs as per, wakakaka, Section 128 (1) of the Kelantan Islamic Law Enactment 2002.

As we know, some men/husbands may have excessive sexual needs, so the poor wives could be required to perform to super-human standards, you know, 'above and beyond' the call of duty.

Dahleeng, use a Kryptonite to 'soften' his super sex needs, wakakaka 

If their wives cannot satisfy their super sexual needs, would those poor wives be still deemed as unjust and abusive as per, wakakaka again, Section 128 (1) of the Kelantan Islamic Law Enactment 2002 by this mufti?

But truthfully, I would be very interested in how he would impartially gauge that a husband has attained sexual satisfaction in his legal act of consummation. I've been informed that in the West it's supposedly measured by how loud the man (or woman) screams 'OH GOD', wakakaka again.

perhaps inspiring the drafting of an Enactment, wakakaka

Or would he just rely on the hubby's say-so, that the undutiful wife should be jailed for 6 months while hubby gets a new young doll of a wife, wakakaka again.

Can this bloke really expect us to take him seriously on a far loftier issue, namely the use of the word 'Allah' by non-Muslims, than a literally-f**king matter such as Muslim wives abusing husbands through not satisfying the hubbys' sexual needs?

But then, such a sensitive issue in Myrmidon Mafulat-ish Malaysia opens the door for the loony right as well as the loony left to exploit the matter for their own interests.

The politicians from both sides are having a gala time though I would say Pakatan and the not-pro-BN NGOs are having the better end of the stoush in driving UMNO into a corner especially with regards to Ah Jib Gor's 'fixed deposit' states.

But UMNO and its allies (including some PAS people) have also been very vocal, especially in their usual arrogant bullying and threatening behaviour. It throws a timely life-line to some used-by politicians like Nasharudin Mt Isa, Ibrahim Ali, Zulkifli Noordin, Hasan Ali, etc, and hey hey hey, even across the political fence, to Pakatan's Chua Jui Meng, wakakaka.

Strangely we have yet to hear from Harussani Zakaria, the Perak Mufti, he of the sms notoriety in spreading seditious nonsense about a non-event, the so-called proselytizing of hordes of Muslims. Though of course we can easily predict what he would say, wakakaka.

Lamentably, as a supporter of DAP politics and policies, I have to confess I've been deeply disappointed by Uncle Lim Kit Siang for raising the question What if the Allah issue had happened 50 years ago? because the Home Minister's decision was only to prohibit the Catholic weekly newsletter, The Herald, from using the Allah-word as a Malay equivalent to the Christian god in its Bahasa Malaysia section. Thus the ruling on the Home Minister's prohibition does not extend to Sabahan and Sarawakian Christians' use of the Allah-word.

Look mate, there are certain national interests like social peace and stability that should be above partisan politics politicking.

And we could again argue that the current acrimonious situation has been brought about by The Herald's obdurate intention to use an Arabic word that's widely known to be used in Peninsula Malaysia (Malaya) by Muslims for the Islamic god, and (I dare say) never by Peninsula Malaysia Christians. I challenge anyone to advise otherwise.

And why have I described The Herald’s intention as obdurate?

As I had written in a previous post, it seems that Father Lawrence Andrew, The Herald’s editor, had been dead set on using the Arabic word Allah to refer to the Christian god, in spite of the superior pedigree (in the Judeo-Christian context) of its god’s other names as revealed in the Bible, and their ready availability and extensive variety.

To remind us of the Christian god’s name as mentioned in the Bible, the first revelation of this god’s personal identity has been in the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) Book of Genesis 1:1 which says:

"In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth."

So, why did Father Andrew consider Elohim a foreign name as if it's alien to Christianity, while to him, strangely Allah is not? Hey, aren't we talking about the God of the Judeo-Christian faith? Or, are we discussing the God of the Islamic faith?

with so many choices (& much more), why insists on the Islamic 'Allah'?

The second name of the Judeo-Christian Divine One as revealed to Moses was YVWH or Yahweh (later modified to Jehovah) which means 'I AM WHO I AM' or 'I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE'.

Yahweh is mentioned 6823 times in the Old Testament, while Elohim scores 2570 times. Can anyone please tell me how many times is Allah mentioned in the Tanakh or the Christian Old Testament as used in Peninsula Malaysia (Malaya)?

For your info, kaytee studied one for 13 years in MBS and several years after school. I have several copies of the Bible (of various versions) and still read selected chapters from time to time, wakakaka.

So, hasn’t The Herald or in the person of Father Lawrence Andrew been obdurate in insisting on using Allah (apart from Tuhan) as the Malay equivalent of the Christian god?

More importantly, why? Make that a big bold WHY?

This brings us to the heavyweight opinion on the Court's ruling, namely that by the Malaysian Bar Council.

The Bar sees fault in the Appeals Court finding that the word 'Allah' was not an integral part of the Christian faith, stating (if I may add) correctly that "It is for a party asserting exclusive rights to the use of the word 'Allah' to establish that they have such exclusive rights, rather than for others to have to establish that the use of the word is integral to their faith."

But because that's almost impossible though there's a very high potential of Peninsula Muslims being misled/confused by the Allah-word in al Kitab and consequentially converted into Christians, with the ensuing social-religious conflagration and social upheaval, that's precisely why the Home Minister has prohibited The Herald from using the Allah-word in its Bahasa Malaysia section.

Yes, someone argued that the government shouldn't deny the Christians of their right to use the Allah-word because of the possibility of some Malays being confused. That may be idealistic but not security-practical, especially in a country like Peninsula Malaysia.

Just recall the far more simple and very tragic affair of one mere individual, Maria Hertogh.

Maria Hertogh

In 1950 after the (British) Singapore court returned her to her Dutch biological parents, Muslims saw photos of Maria kneeling before a statue of the Virgin Mary, and went berserk.

Muslim rioters in the Maria Hertorg incident

Riots broke out for 3 days and 18 people were killed while 173 were injured with many properties damaged.

This is exactly the sort of Christian-Muslim clashes that we don't want.

Now, much as my Christian friends like DAP's Ong KM, who assured us that there is no such sinister Christian intent (and I believe Christians like him don't have such bad intentions), may hate me for saying so, I'm afraid I have to agree with the prohibition, bitter as it may be to freedom of expression and human rights, as I know all too well the missionary-evangelistic nature of the Christian Church. 

Note that I draw a distinct difference between the sincerity of the general Christian population in Malaysia (like Ong KM, Susan Loone, Lucia Lai and a few sweeties that I know, wakakaka) against that of the missionary-evangelistic doctrine of the Christian Church.

My dislike of religious proselytizing policies, plans and programs extends also to those by the Islamic church.

Continuing with the Bar, it disagrees with the Court that allowing such an application [ie. for Christians (presumably in Peninsula Malaysia) to refer to their god as Allah in a Bahasa language Bible] would cause confusion in the Muslim community.

The Court (one of the judges, Apandi) had stated: "It is my judgment that the most possible and probable threat to Islam, in the context of this country, is the propagation of other religions to the followers of Islam.”

"It is our common finding that the name Allah was not an integral part of the Christian faith and practice."

I believe Justice Apandi could have been more specific in the above 2nd paragraph and stated (note yellow-highlighted phrase that I inserted): "It is our common finding that the name Allah was not an integral part of the Christian faith and practice in Peninsula Malaysia."

And in his 1st paragraph above, I would have like to see him state his findings in terms of national interests rather than the Islamic religion, as (note my strikeouts in red highlights): "It is my judgment that the most possible and probable threat to Islam, in the context of this country, is the propagation of other religions to the followers of Islam.”

This in fact is the bloody elephant in the Peninsula Malaysia (Malaya) room.

there's more value in not noticing it lah, wakakaka


  1. KT,

    Based on yr reasoning, u seem to think like umno – the appellate court ruling on Allah is publication & location specific, ie limited to The Herald & P M’sia ONLY.

    Umno did that as a 2nd thought to placate the East M’sians, after the 1st blunder allowing the judges to come up with a hp6 verdict. What about u?

    Bearing in mind that this is a CASE LAW, involving the Federal Constitution, whose jurisdiction extends far beyond what u, & those umno goons, would like to specifically limit.

    Do read - All Malaysians are bound by the Court of Appeal ruling on the Allah issue, says former attorney general Tan Sri Abu Talib Othman!

    So still no blanket covering? The cabinet (executive) can overrule the judgment involving the FC (judiciary), which is a separate & equal branch of the M’sian govt. Or does this confirming that the M’sian judiciary is in the care of the executive, as envisaged & designed by that Mamak?

    Perhaps, u should consult a learned lawyer, someone like constitutional expert Abdul Aziz Bari, before shooting this piece.

    ‘…the current acrimonious situation has been brought about by The Herald's obdurate intention to use an Arabic word that's widely known to be used in Peninsula Malaysia (Malaya) by Muslims for the Islamic god, and (I dare say) never by Peninsula Malaysia Christians. I challenge anyone to advise otherwise.’

    is another blank shoot!

    Not only the East M'sian Christian natives, the Christian Orang Asli of P M’sia have also been using Allah long before the rude awaken of the current wannabe Islamic blur-sotongs. Father Lawrence Andrew, The Herald’s editor, had been dead set on using the Arabic word Allah to refer to the Christian god, bcoz it’s the term that these orang Asli r most comfortable & familiar, due to the long historical usage. To them, they just want the right to worship God in their native language. "Elohim" or any other words, that have NOT been introduce to them during the early day of their conversion dating back to the Portuguese/Dutch missionary works in 1600, r unknown words to them.

    R u into the Etymology of Allah? Or for that matter, the Abrahamic monotheism, again! For all yr passion in this subject, it’s NOT relevant here!

    Yr mentioning of the Maria Hertogh riot is a rather ingenious way of covering yr fear of the past shadow. The only argument that I can quote, equally ingeniously, is IF we don’t stand up & face that challenge then we would forever trying the best to avoid that fear. Then those umno goons would forever using it as an excuse to hang u, just like the May13 debacle.

    Now, what’s KT’s fear? A riot that would cause by a group of troglodytes, who refuse to face the reality of modern world.

    It’s similar to the case of keep mentioning May13 as a warning to those who challenge umno's failed NEP. U forget that people grow up & childish fear would disappear as brain power mature. And the ONLY way to out grow this fear is to face it, talk about it & challenge it. Many Malays have comes to realise this & thus the weakening effect of the May13 among them. Otherwise, we might as well live under the tempurung forever.

    Yr smart-alecky way of re-writing Justice Apandi’s judgement clearly shows yr one-way-mind of self-right. Think for a minute, r u Justice Apandi? Or can u actually read his mind? What about, what he wrote is EXACTLY what he meant? & hiding behind all those 3 judgement is that Ketuanan Melayu?

    This is indeed about that bloody elephant in the WHOLE Malaysia room, Yes?

    BTW, what’s yr take on Justice Zawawi Salleh’s judgement by googling?

    1. I'll reply to most of your comments in a new post

  2. KT, I have no idea if you read this, but IIRC, the Christian peranakan (aka Nonya/Baba) community of Peninsula Malaysia (Malaya) refer to their god as Allah as well.


    2. Besides the Archdiocese’s historical and constitutional reasons for using “Allah”, another reason, not relied upon in Court, is that Christians need two words to refer to God, just as in all other languages. One is a way of expressing “Lord” and the other, of course, is for expressing “God”. In Malay/Indonesian Christian materials the word “Tuhan” has been mainly used for “Lord” and “Allah” has been used for “God”. Some Muslims have said that Christians should use “Tuhan” for “God” and not “Allah”, which they say is strictly the “personal name” of the Islamic God. However, they have not been so helpful as to suggest how Christians could then express the idea of “Lord” or “the Lord God”. If Christians say “Tuhan Tuhan” for “the Lord God” it actually means “Gods” in Malay, where the plural of a noun is formed by duplicating the noun. Saying “Tuhan Allah”, however, makes perfect sense.

    3. Tuhan Elohim
      Tuhan Yahweh
      Tuhan El Shaddai
      Tuhan El Olam
      Tuhan Elohi Olam
      Tuhan Elyon

    4. Kaytee,
      You have just barred from entering sabah & sarawak. Whatever fuck you say also irrelevant because Indonesians will still use Allah as God. Why don't you just admit you are wrong

  3. .... and KT takes comfort and pleasure in kissing the elephant. wakaka

  4. So in future I will have to write 'Axxxx' or utter "Ar..." to use the A word ?

    1. if you're a Peninsula Christian why use Allah when there's so many alternative names for your god, with far superior biblical pedigree

    2. Because we wanna use it, so FUCK YOU!

    3. aha, now you have revealed your obdurate intent wakakaka

    4. Kaytee,
      Just give up lest your motive is wanting sabah & sarawak to secede from Malaysia. Indonesia would be very happy in supporting this movement

  5. I believe most Peninsula Christians did NOT use Allah to refer to their god. For example, if they have been calling their god My Lord, or Dear God, or Jesus, it will be very alien/strange and uncomfortable if they were to suddenly switch to calling for Allah. As far as I know, only the Orang Asal or Orang Asli, and may be even the Christian nyonya and baba refer to their god as Allah over here in the West. They have been doing this for decades, so why all the fuss just now ? Ketuanan again? Putting these damn pendatangs in their place ? Life is never dull in wonderful Malaysia...always some provocative issue almost every other week. But at least all the racist insults will quieten down a bit as the Umno election is coming to a close....thank god for such small mercies, heheh.

  6. So many people have pointed out that . . .

    A rose by any name smells just as sweet
    God by any name is still God

  7. From the Al-Qur’an the Muslims can also choose to call God by any of the following names (99 in total):

    Al Waahidu = The One and Only
    Al Qawiyul Matin = The Most Mighty and Indestructible
    Al Jabbaru = The Most Strong
    Al Azizu = The Almighty
    Al Muta’ali = The Most High
    Al Baqi = The Everlasting
    Al Haiyul Qaiyum = The One Who Lives and Stand Alone
    Zuljalaliwal Ikram = The Owner of Dignity and Greatness

  8. There are many thousands of East Malaysian Christians working in the peninsular now. They want to continue to use the word Allah. Herald's Malay language readers in the peninsular are in, a not significant part, made up of them. All said and done, it should boil down to one thing-can the courts and/or the government tell others what to call their version of god?

    1. East Malaysians Christians can continue to pray and call their god by whatever name they wish but The Herald cannot publish the word Allah when referring to the Christian god

    2. Hahahaha! I felt that Herald should just ignore the ruling.....Lets go to the brink just like what Gandhi did


    3. Yes but my point is East Malaysian Christians who live in West Malaysia (thousands of them) are the subscribers of the Malay version of the Herald. If it is ok for them to use Allah, why not read it as well in a newspaper marketed to them?

    4. okay, but surely they can still read The Herald without the newsletter having the Allah-word in any of its BM articles. The ban is only on the use of the Allah-word in the BM article and not the newsletter itself or any of the non-BM language articles.

      And if they is a necessity to include a prayer involving the words "our Lord God", then that's where The Herald could use "Elohim (or Yahweh, etc) Tuhan kita", though I know it won't which is why the Catholic Church still wants to appeal.

    5. Let me raise an anology - u r been known as KT since u come into age. Now can someone call u TK & get response from u?

    6. unlike the Judeo-Christian god who has many Hebraic names (examples goven above), kaytee has only one, so how or why would anyone call me by something that's patently not my name - and if anyone does, they won't get a response from me because I wouldn't be aware he/she was calling me

    7. So, for those who have been introduced to Allah ONLY eons ago, what do they have to called their Numero Uno?

      U keep saying that the Judeo-Christian god who has many Hebraic names, yet u conveniently forget that the Christian Natives of M'sia (P & E) only know Allah through eons of religious conditioning. All other Hebraic names r unknown to them.

      So how?

      It's not their choosing in the initial & yet, through the year, has been intertwined with their culture to become a common theme that they revere.

      It could not be undone - just like 'why would anyone call me by something that's patently not my name - and if anyone does, they won't get a response from me because I wouldn't be aware he/she was calling me'.

      This is in their psyche as far as religious feeling goes. These people is not yr newly convert! Get it?

      Wind back the clock & get those bloody Portuguese/Dutch missionaries to rephrase the Supreme One, using any of yr suggested Hebraic names? U must be thick, in fact very, for that consistently propagate this thought!

    8. Thick? there's no need to be abusive. Those Christian natives can use the Allah-word in their prayers and at their churches, so what's the issue?

    9. Unfortunately KT, I believe it is you who is missing the point by saying Christians can use any other word. We all know this, but Christians who have used the word Allah all this while simply will not allow themselves to be dictated to on this matter. I wish they would just say 'ok, you win UMNO. We will use Tuhan instead.' But they have said no, enough is enough. We will not be dictated to. Any righteous thinking person must defend their right to do so. Or else where will it end? I am from Sabah and believe me the Christian natives can take a hell of a lot of shit. It is incredible really to see how easily they can be fooled, manipulated and taken for a ride repeatedly. Except this one time. And I wholeheartedly congratulate them for finally taking a. Stand, something they haven't done since1985 really. You go on and continue kowtowing to the supremacists on this one. But history will judge you harshly on this topic. You are saying let them win, but this isn't a. Case of turning the other cheek. Wrong analogy. This is about giving an inch but taking a yard. This is not also about Christian evangelists with sinister plots. This is about Malay speaking Christians saying enough. You should back their right to claim a word so important to them. It is not just a word to them. It is a damn shame someone with your intellect is unable to discern that.

    10. Then, why not The Herald, a publication they read?

      Or to pacify the Islamic blur-sotong - Allah for the Christian native version, any other Hebrew names for the non-native Christian M'sians.


      Deng xiaopeng would be impressed that M'sia could refine his 1country2system to such fine detail.

    11. Parvinder,
      Zaid Ibrahim, Kaytee lover boy also advocate the banning of the word "Bodoh" I may add Bodoh sombong because Kaytee seems to have that attribute. By the way, if kaytee so afraid of what the moslems might do to us.....Remember what goes around comes around. Remember the bubur mosque kenna demolished.
      If you have noticed, it's the UMNO melayus as well as certain sane sarawakian/sabah BN leaders including Taib Mahmud who are pacifying the increasingly rest east malaysians. Seriously, I strongly suggest kaytee should declare himself persona non grata in borneo. Sometimes I hope that the dayaks should reinstate the head hunting activities......Decapitating kaytee's head would be extremely fun

    12. and you like my head as a trophy, wouldn't u, wakakaka

  9. .KT and esteemed readers

    Salam 1 malaysia

    The thing I want to touch upon is

    the need for mutual R-E-S-P-E-CT.

    The christians argued that they

    wanted the name Allah as a matter of right-

    their unalienable right as a citizen of Malaysia.

    Fair enough but what of melayu rights?

    One cannot have unbounded rights that

    transgresses someone else's rights. Catholics

    demanding a right to call Allah their god

    must know that their neighbours are

    Melayus whose right begin at the door of their house . Catholics come

    to Malaysia and the Melayus have been kind enough

    to accomodate them as neighbours. And to think

    that catholics have bullied brother melayus in

    Indonesia and fellow melayus in the Phillipines

    who had been converted en masse by the catholics!

    Who is going to fight for the rights of the Phillipine

    Melayus and the Indon to uphold their ancestral religion- Islam?

    Don't these people have the right to keep their ancestral religion-

    Islam and the sanctity of their Allah?

    The logic in their reasoning is flawed. You are not in

    catholic countyry . You are in muslim Malaysia. I

    suspect Chinese dominated Singapore would not consider

    such a request by the catholics.

    The catholics in my mind are a

    devil incarnate, taking advantageof the melayus weak personality.

    Can the melayus here trust that the catholics will not

    use the word Allah to attract muslims to become catholics?

    Of course not!

  10. 2/2


    The catholics have had a treachourous reputation in history.

    Look at the contradictions that the catholics had introduced

    in the al kitab in the translation of holy ghost.

    Holy ghost simply translated from the conceptual event that

    purportedly had taken place would be -holy pontianak.

    Yet the dutch willy nilly wronly translated it as 'roh kuddus'

    In Islam attributes of Allah are memorized by children and

    God's attributes are invariably the opposite of Allah's.

    Sample attributes-1. Man is created and procreates in turn.

    2. Man lives for a finite life- x number of years

    Attributes of Allah

    1. Allah is not created and does not procreate.

    Malayus will have to insist that the first line of the bible

    has got to go into the dustbin.

    3. Allah is omniprescient- existed from infinity and will continue to

    exist until infinity. Surely any reasonable man will ask

    why the christian god has a father and a son- those are a man's

    attribute. And the third component 3 in 1 god

    of the catholic god [from line1, page 1 of the bible] , the

    holy ghost is translated wrongly as 'roh kuddus' again

    using arabicised malay words which roughly mean a good roh.

    Roh is a life given to man when he is born and we know

    that it has an expiry date -meaning that roh is finite.

    Is it not strange that the first line of the bible

    emphasised that the catholic God is human like [having

    a Father] , It has a Son and to add injury to God's

    image the Melayu translation says that it has

    attribute of a man-having an expiry date !

    Simply put , the God inthe catholic bible is a sub standard god [my take]

    It has a father, it has a Son and It has a finite life [roh]

    as can be seen when Jesus died!

    Do you still blame me for insisting that I have a right to

    insist that 'My' Allah has attributes of Infinite existence-

    Omniprescient -He will exist and had existed infinitely! At my door

    catholics et al will begin to have a right other that aforementioned

    concepts .. You catholics keep your

    belief and me melayus will keep our belief as per surah Al Kafirun.

    As for the view of the Majlis Peguam,

    one ' easy '[cincai-lah] lawyer Aziz Bari declared such a declaration

    would make the melayus a laughing stock to the world. I would say

    F$$$k You to him and all who shared his opinion!

    Interestingly Bari did not feel shy when

    Pundek-Lingam who had been shown to have transgressed

    an acceptable standard of behaviour is still in the Register of the bar Council!

    The Bar like Aziz B is unclear of the concept of rights...

    khong khek khuat






    khong khek khuat



  11. The problem with those who want to use Allah to extend to Christians god is their obstinate believe in PR spin its an UMNO issue. Please get this point in your skull. It is not. This is an overwhelming Malay Muslims view. Those non partisan including mufti Kelantan are against it. Even PAS revered ulama harun din. The leftist media seem to show that Khalid Samad, dr Asri etc as representing the overwhelming majority while Ibrahim Ali depicting the minority goons. This is a major lie by the left media doing the utusan style of reporting. So long as this continue we will be further apart. Utusan and BH don't carry Ibrahim Ali as leading advocates. They don't coz there are plentiful of ulama and mufti against this. You want to shape this view according to your thinking related to Ibrahim Ali. You are definitely wrong and disconnected.

    1. i can agree this could be the view of most malay muslim, but we also notice many pro bn trying to paint this as a chinese christian issue ie dap, which might not be the case. i dun know what is yr stance (and helen) shd the one who disagree is bumi christian, however at least kt n helen rarely oppose any sort of 1 country 2 system (eg. vernacular school, malay rights etc), a wisdom that r now under severe test.

    2. Hahahaha! They have forgotten that the east malaysian bumis have given BN the crucial votes. Worst still, some even would have become persona non grata. Even the mighty Taib Mahmud need to do a u turn to save himself. PBB is made up of 3 parties.....PANAS, Bumiputra & Pekasa in which considerable number of christians in Pekasa.....Number Game......Maria Hertogh paid back time!!!????

    3. Believe what you want but this issue is definitely undertaken by Umno to divide the populace and divert attention. They have succeeded somewhat that even in PAS, there have been differing views.

      The issue has now dragged on for too long and has in fact taken a life of its own. The way the government flip-flopped on this issue with more silly excuses indicates very clearly that the intended ban is indefensible and untenable in law, in rationale and more so in implementation.

      I am sad that the religions concerned have been subjected to so much disrepute whenever the issue comes up for mention. Now, our judiciary has also been criticized by all and sundry on the biased and flimsy judgment. Sad indeed.

  12. I don't practice any religion, so I don't have a personal stake in this argument.
    However, the legal implications of the government's actions are very worrying.

    In one sense, the Court of Appeals ruling was narrowly defined, touching only on the Home Minister's right to bar the Herald from using the "Allah" word in their BM section. So, yes, the Court verdict only directly says the ban on the Herald "Allah" usage stands, and doesn't give instructions on any other areas.
    On the other hand , the supporting written grounds made by the three judges were shocking in their wide ranging applicability. It has lent legal grounding for broad interference by the Home Minister in future usage of the word "Allah" in any non-Muslim publication (Bibles and other scriptures are "publications" too). Given this is a Superior court, the legal precedence will have an impact for a long time.

    The Home Ministry will not stop usage of Allah in Christian prayers in Sarawak and Sabah for the simple reason it would lose BN their Fixed Deposit there faster than you can say "Withdrawn".
    Herald BM section - Nyet. SIB worship - Da. Imported Bibles - Sometimes Nyet, Sometimes Da. Imported Christian VCD - several cases pending. Other Christian pamphlets or publications - goodness , who knows ? Depends on Home Minister's "mood" or political calculation.

    This is isn't rule of law. This is either arbitrary application of power or politically calculated cherry picking. Or maybe throw a Die or Tarrot card.

  13. CB khong khek khuat,

    U talked about mutual R-E-S-P-E-CT. But throughout yr writing here, there is only ONE signal coming from u – respect the only the Melayu right. All others’ right can go to hell!

    So where’s the mutual aspect?

    ‘One cannot have unbounded rights that transgresses someone else rights.’

    Right! So what the bull r u talking about? Isnt u, who is transgressing the Christians’ right to workship/called their creator? & don’t u dare involved who has the right to the word Allah. U probably didn’t know that Allah is also an Aramaic word for god, & the zealots, Jesus included, spoke Aramaic. In short, ALL middle Eastern languages share similar root. The evidence in who’s-first has been lost in time progression & intertwine cultural evolution, period!

    So, what a load of rubbish – ‘Don't these people have the right to keep their ancestral religion, Islam and the sanctity of their Allah?’

    BTW, the correct ancestral religion of the people u quoted is Hinduism/Buddhism. & If u really want to claimed the REAL antiquity – what about paganism?

    And the sanctity of Allah, lies everywhere in his omnipresence. Comprehendi?

    So, yr misguided logic in yr reasoning is flawed. You are not in a Muslim county. You are in secular Malaysia, despite what most of the Islamic blur-sotongs like u wanted to proclaimed so loudly. Not until u change the FC, M'sia is a secular country. Eat yr heart out!

    Since KT is so much into etymology of Allah. Perhaps u should consult him. Wakakakaka!

    On yr takes about the Trinity concept in Catholicism, I suggest strongly that u stayed away from using simple-minded analogy. Trinity is a faith concept that the believers have to accept without questioning. There r MANY similar faith concepts in Islam, that the followers, equally accept without ANY challenging.

    Bearing in mind, that both Islam & Christianity share MANY similar origin. Just be VERY careful that what yr rants about one could very easily apply to the others.

    So, back to yr mutual R-E-S-P-E-CT, ye? Ooop!

    Finally, to yr one-liner take on Aziz Bari, at least he had put his argument through CLEARLY, based on our Federal Constitution. What had u? A single-track mind about all the good of yr religion, based on lope-sided understanding, is doing zilch to the good name of the Islam, that u r trying so hard to champion.

    Islam don’t need follower like u. U r just a deviationist that contributes to the desecration of a GOD, who is too BIG for yr hati (ie emotion) to understand, least a total submission.

    So, who ‘ unclear of the concept of rights...’?

    U DO need a BIG mirror in yr house!

  14. Although the judgment is said to be against the Herald only, it has far-reaching implications on the use of the word and other banned words as well. Remember the home ministry has confiscated thousands of Alkitab copies as well as some CD worship materials too. It does not make any sense at all that Christians could use the word in their Holy Books and prayers but cannot use it in their bulletin. If you could accept this , what would prevent them from banning other books and even songs? What would prevent them from barging into Churches and bookshops to look for those materials with the banned word?

    So, the only way to put the issue to rest is for the Christians to get an outright decision by the courts for the freedom to use the word in all their religious books and other worship materials such as bulletin, magazines, songs, etc. There must not be any compromise on this.

    1. That'd be the course of action taken by Herald. Thereafter would civil disobediance. And it's already working. Sarawak state election coming up in 2 years time.

    2. 1/2

      Anon 9.51am



      Salam 1 Malaysia

      First I must apologise for not being to respond to

      your comment early. Second I wonder what CB in front

      of my calling meant?

      Anyway, what is the issue that you want to raise

      about your god being Allah?

      Of course Allah is God for all mankind catholics, muslim

      jews, atheist and others in this world. This is non issue

      from me and all the pro Allah as catholic god in all the blogs.

      In fact one comment from a FF Calvin , from East Malaysia

      remarked that the catholics in East Malaysia has no issue

      with them as the prohibition does not affect them.

      Interesting that you commented about I did not know what

      I talked about of catholicism. You are wrong about this.

      I was raised in a government quarter in my childhood. My

      neighbours were Dankers and Sekelchys and I am in way

      looked after by the serani girls! I had the good luck

      of studying in the uk and had postgraduate attachments in

      catholic Holland at and work experiences in Bergamo.

      Italy- also a staunch catholic country. Short of marrying

      catholic/lutheran women I have had many happy relationships with them!

      Interestingly you may want to know that the Seranis never ever

      mentioned Allah as their God. Likewise the chinese that

      I had over the course of my professional career had

      never mentioned Allah as their god. I suspect this wanting of God

      Allah as the god in bible are wholly the works of new catholics

      -the chingkies [who were originally pagans] and a very small number

      of indians born into poverty who were adopted by the catholic church.

      The disparity between chingkies , natives and indians as Priests

      in the catholic church can be seen in Helen Ang's blog. In East Malaysia about

      95 per cent of the priests were chingkies, a smattering of natives and

      a handful of indians make up the rest of the priest.

      The distribution of priest by race must be about the same in the Peninsula!

      Well according to my son who was studying overseas

      the catholics had a wholesale conversion going on for students and

      money and top of the line laptops and parties were sponsored to attract

      students. Lots of chinese , indians and even a sikh were recruited in a particular

      year. So these students who were presumably pagans and atheist were open to

      ideas that they could take Allah as the name of god.

      No reasonable genuine catholic that I know would take Allah as god and Jesus

      Christ as his prophet. This is the basis of orthodoxy in the arab/syrian/Unitarian

      churches. By the diktats of the council of Nicea such declarant would be

      deemed heretics in the eye of the catholic church! You have just said that catholics

      have 1 god and so had "omar" Pakiam a couple of days as reported by The malaysian

      Insider. If one does not separate the Father, the Son and the holy ghost

      as separate entities he will be classified as a heretic by the diktat

      and can excommunicated by

      the Archbishop in Bangkok! Have you and Pakiam not fallen into

      the heretic trap now that you have declared there is only 1 god , Allah?

      Why go back a hundred thousand years when Islam was founded

      only 1400 or so years ago?

      The days when natives of this country were atheis /buddhist is not relevant.

      What were your ancestors then -catholics ? There goes your argument into the


    3. 2/2

      .Surah Al-Maidah [5:3]

      Interestingly , about 1400 years ago during the lifetime of the

      prophet Allah Almighty had send down this message.

      This day I have perfected your religion [ Al-Islam ] for you and

      completed my favour upon you...

      Simply put this would imply that muslims do not have to track

      back to the period before Jesus [Alaihi salam] for references

      to the word Allah or any other issue. I submit Asri has not considered this

      surah befor making his comment .And of course aziz bari too might have

      overlooked this surah - a key surah giving a finality to

      all the laws and references a muslim can refer only to the quran. So

      with that this finality : the arguments of Nik Aziz, Asri, Hadi going back to time

      before can all be safely junked into the dustbin!

      khong khek khuat

  15. CB khong khek khuat,

    No need to salam me! To u, it would be very rude, bcoz u r a type4 hypocrite – someone with education & yet act with self-gain evil intention.

    Read through to get yr 2sec fame.

    1)What’s the REAL issue about this kalimah Allah that blow up in a VERY small teacup known as bolihland?

    Yr earlier writings STRONGLY framed u as those Islamic blur-sotongs, banked on championing yr PERSONAL conviction about yr god’s sole exclusivity to yr version of Islam.

    DON’T denial this fact as in this latest phrase from u – ‘Of course Allah is God for all mankind catholics, muslim, jews, atheist and others in this world. This is non issue from me and all the pro Allah as catholic god in all the blogs.’

    IFF this is the case in the 1st place, then why r u facing my piece-by-piece rage?

    2)Yr historical run-through about yr past encountering with the other religions (especially Catholicism), shown yr TRUE colour in human understanding. U lived among other faiths & yet u learnt nothing, despite of yr (so called) tertiary educational background & oversea exposure, as reflected in yr past & current writings!

    Let me ask, again, what’s yr rants about this group of chingkies [who were originally pagans] and a very small number of indians born into poverty who were adopted by the catholic church?

    Just bcoz they r vocal about their religious right? More so, they r guided by the Federal Constitution provisions?

    So, they r repulsive to u, since they DON’T kowtow to yr ketuanan?

    3)Yr continuous emphasis about Allah not being mentioned/used by people u encountered, again proves yr unwillingness to see beyond the subject discussed.

    Let me enlighten u – the core of the kalimah Allah issue is the constitutional right for M’sians to practice their religion freely. The mentioned confusion among Malay Muslims & proselytisation r distortions created to gain political mileage.

    Moreover, ain’t the Christian Natives ( P & E M’sia) have been calling their God Allah for centuary?

    4) Again, Trinity is a faith concept. It’s a THREE-IN-ONE theological doctrine that the followers CANNOT dispute. ‘If one does not separate the Father, the Son and the holy ghost as separate entities he will be classified as a heretic by the diktat and can excommunicated’ is misplaced. U clearly DON’T understand Trinity & that MODERN religious believes, emphasizes PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with the Almighty. Heretic doesn’t apply ANYMORE. Perhaps, in yr version of Islam?

    There goes your argument into the dustbin!


    1. .


      Salam 1 Malaysia to all

      Anon 9.51am , you cannot dicttate

      what I cannot do. That will go against

      the democratic principles that you have been shouting

      all along!

      You are bringing the issues in a circle!

      Look if you are too thick to understand, I cannot make

      it any simpler for you. You are probably one confused

      newbie catholic - leave catholicism if you cannot

      tahan the rigors of the catholic religion! You

      want to say that there is no more heretics and no

      excommunication ! Prohibitions and Commandments do not apply

      to catholics in Malaysia- Is this your take?

      Remind me of the chingkies who take all the traffic laws

      of the country as mere suggestions . You do the same

      with your catholic edicts and now you want to treat the

      constitution just like the chingkies treat the traffic laws!

      Fuck you , fuck you, fuck you

      And fortunately we have a Minister Nazri who will call a spade

      a spade. He can explain to you clearly what you need t6o know

      about Allah!

      All the obsessive talk about 'sotong' . You have issues with the 'sotong'

      in your skirt that is not getting the needful? You should not

      bring personal issues of your 'sotong' in a public forum. A

      bit out of place-don't you think

      You mentioned about the omniprescient god. Yes but your christian god

      had a finite life [ Jesus did die ] , had a son , a mother [mariam] and

      had a father - all attributes of a finite man.

      Omniprescience is not an attribute of a catholic god.

      And the wrongly translated 'roh kuddus' confirms that the finiteness

      of the attributes of the catholic god. Again 'roh' is life given

      to man and it has an expiry date. So by your arguments man must not

      track back to old great grandfather stories. If one goes back so far

      one will get lost in the space-time continuum. Then you will be lost

      just like the movie.

      I think you will have to engage with Pak Yeh [ see warong pak

      yeh after this] and have a discussion at his blog . I suspect

      some of your evangelista frens are there busy asking/insulting

      Islam there!

      Adios, may you find the Allah-the One true god that you seek.

      Open your heart and be sincere and you will find your true God

      -by whatever name he is called. Amen!



      khong khek khuat

  16. cont 2of2

    5)‘Why go back a hundred thousand years when Islam was founded only 1400 or so years ago?

    The days when natives of this country were atheis /buddhist is not relevant.’

    Then, what the hell r u talking about ‘Don't these people have the right to keep their ancestral religion, Islam and the sanctity of their Allah?’

    R u saying before the coming of Islam, there is NO Allah? How blasphemous can u be? If yr ‘Allah’ is only defined by the founding of Islam, then the omnipresence of the Almighty Allah is in question! U r now committing eternal sin in the court of yr faith - & I doubt, strongly, it’s Islam.

    6)Be careful, VERY careful about quoting verses from Quran – ‘This day I have perfected your religion [ Al-Islam ] for you and completed my favour upon you...’

    Yr quoted verse clearly shown that Allah exist before the coming of Islam, & Islam is version 3 ( RPK’s word) of Allah’s teaching.

    U r dead wrong in – ‘imply that muslims do not have to track back to the period before Jesus [Alaihi salam] for references to the word Allah or any other issue.’

    Just like in science, a diagonally oppositional doctrine to religion, all knowledge stands on the shoulder of the PAST GIANTS. Understand past mean?

    Thus yr interpretation of – ‘a key surah giving a finality to all the laws and references a muslim can refer only to the quran.’? is a CLEAR contradiction to why Quran’s FIRST word is READ. Read to learn the past deeds & ills, so as to learn &/or not to repeat it. Even Prophet Mohd encouraged his followers to venture to China for knowledge. If Quran is so complete, why did the Prophet said that?

    Quran gives guidance, while the followers have to study & interpret intelligently to apply these guidelines. In short, what Quran dictates is ALIVE & not a dead set of rules that r been moulded in stone, like many of u, troglodytes, like to interpret.

    For its aliveness, thus out-growth the new interpretations that r in-tune with time. This is the TRUE teaching of Quran.

    U r clearly not in the take, as far as Islamic understanding goes. Thus I might conclude that I’m wasting my time to argue with a hp6 pseudo-intellectual. Perhaps u read Quran like role learning – read & accept, zero understanding!

    U truly deserve that CB designation!!!!!

  17. Khong Khek Khuat.....there goes your spiel...right into the dustbin as so amply demonstrated by Anon 9:59 am ! Jawab lah ....jangan tak jawab ! Btw...don't overwork yourself if someone else salute you with a could mean Cermelang Berhormat...just like your KKK could mean Kongkek Kuat.