Sunday, April 03, 2005

Israeli Goose, Palestinian Gander!

Israel honours Egyptian Jews who operated as terrorists in Egypt in the 1950s. Egypt is of course pretty miffed at this double standards.

The Jewish terrorists were operating 50 years ago in Egypt, by carrying out bomb attacks for the political objective of destabilizing relations between Egypt, the United States and Britain.

Back in 2002, the Israeli Knesset honoured the memory of a killer thug like Avraham Stern, leader of the terrorist group LEHI, who murdered a civilian, a UN diplomat named Count Bernadotte of Sweden.

Count Bernadotte was the United Nations Security Council appointed mediator for peace in the Arab-Jewish conflict in Palestine. It is ironical that Bernadotte, as head of the Swedish Red Cross during WWII, successfully obtained the release of 21,000 prisoners, including 6,500 Jews, from extermination in Nazi camps, only to die at the hands of a Jewish terrorist assassin Yehoshua Cohen.

It needs to be noted also the honoured Israeli hero, Avraham Stern wanted to collaborate with the Nazis – just beat that, the Knesset honouring a turncoat who elected to fight on the side of the Holocaust perpetrators.

Among the group planning the assassination of Count Bernadotte was a man named Yitzhak Shamir, who went on to become PM of Israel. The first Jewish terrorist who became PM of Israel was of course Menachem Begin.

Then, there is the third notorious Israeli PM, Ariel Sharon, who has been associated with the Sabra-Shatila massacre, Sharon has been indicted as a war criminal. He is well-known for his over-the-top Nazi-like brutalities against Arabs, yet ironically elected by the children of the Holocaust to be the Prime Minister of Israel.

So what’s the difference between these Jewish terrorists and Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, PLO, Hezbollah, etc?


  1. I think I may be done here after reading this item.

    If you don't know the difference, then you don't know much about the situation in the Middle East. Clearly you do not since you made a comparisson between the Israelis and Nazis, a sadly all too common statement with no basis in reality. For your own sake, educate yourself rather than just accepting propaganda. Not doing so makes everyone's life harder - especially the lives of those of us who are interested in real peace and spend time working on it.

  2. mashgiach, you're welcome here to comment civilly or if you don't like the tone (it's a left leaning blog - has never hidden that fact) then it's your decision not to even visit. I don't blog to attract people, though I welcome different views as a learning experience and intellectual exercise.

    I did not say all Israelis have been like Nazis. You alleged so.

    I stand by my comments on Avraham Stern - it's on public record which incidentally I did not write - please read for yourself.

    As for Ariel Sharon, what he has done has been very Nazi-like, putting people into ghettos, collective punishments, sanctioned murders of Palestinian leaders including a quadraplegic, AND physically numbering Palestinian prisoners on their arms. That last act was so revolting to a retired Israeli general, who experienced the Holocaust, that he called for an immediate stop to Sharons's military doing that, and to his credit, it was - surely you as a Jew do remember the Nazi tattooing of Jewish prisoners?

    Yes, I will take your advice to educate myself, which I am always doing, but I would welcome you doing so too.

    My advice, if it is of any value,is don't bury your head in the sand and refuse to see things from a non-Jewish/American point of view (I apologise, let me qualify that - not ALL Jewish/American point of view). You have an unrealistic rosy picture of all things Jewish - but of course that's your prerogative, but do not be surprised if otehrs don't agree with you.

    It doesn't mean that they are anti-Jew - that's a very tiring and pathetic childish argument. Be aware that some Jews like Ariel Sharon and Uzi Cohen have discredited/belittled the painful memory of the Holocaust - one cannot wear and wave the memory of the Holocaust as a teflon shield against any criticism of one, UNLESS one uses one's or one's family/ethnic tragic experience to avoid those very Nazi practices. I am afraid if you still refuse to see the evil in people like Ariel Sharon and some Israelis then you are no different from some Muslims in this part of the world who see no evil in people like Osama bin Laden or the Taliban or Ayatollah Khomeini.

    The decision is of course yours and yours alone.

  3. mashgiach, if you want a more comfortable zone, I recommend Rajan's blog

    His views are the exact opposite of mine - I am left, he is right (though he called himself libetarian); he is pro-Bush, I am anti-Bush in many ways though not completely (likewise too with Rajan, as I have witnessed his criticism of Bush from time to time); he is very pro-most things Israeli, I am anti-Sharon and the Israeli right wing, ultra religious fanatics (which of course, you think don't exist); I am socialist, he is conservative.

    You had a brief tussle with him over at bolehtalk, when he shot you down for your, as I mentioned, unrealistic rosy picture of all things Jewish, and mind you, that's Rajan, one of, if not the most ardent Israeli supporter in Malaysia. I suppose even he couldn't even stomach your whitewashed views of all things Jewish.

    But in general, you'll enjoy a more cosy exchange of views there. You'll meet more like-minded people around. You won't get any pro-Sharon views here, that I can assure you, UNLESS (and I won't hold my breath), Sharon takes 'the road to Damascus' (and I don't mean become a Christian).

    I thank you for your comments here. Except for the over-the-top rosy picture of 'peaceful' Jews, I find them interesting and educational. Of course I hope you'll continue to comment, but if you don't, I wish you all the best.

  4. No, you clearly have not educated yourself. My "point of view" is that of someone whose second degree is in Middle Eastern studies and who has spent twenty years living in the region. My "whitewashed view" is an accurate one, and hardly "whitewashed" to any extent. Rajan's comments were based on a clear misunderstanding - which I'm surprised you missed. I continually learn more and am deeply involved in the reality of the situation, something you seem to be wholly ignorant of. This paragraph in particular was revolting:

    As for Ariel Sharon, what he has done has been very Nazi-like, putting people into ghettos, collective punishments, sanctioned murders of Palestinian leaders including a quadraplegic, AND physically numbering Palestinian prisoners on their arms. That last act was so revolting to a retired Israeli general, who experienced the Holocaust, that he called for an immediate stop to Sharons's military doing that, and to his credit, it was - surely you as a Jew do remember the Nazi tattooing of Jewish prisoners?

    You must be joking. One by one then: Putting people into ghettos? Hardly. The Arabs and UN put the Arabs into the refugee camps, camps which abut Arab cities which have roomm to arsorb more people. A "refugee" population which is growing and that no attempt is being made by anyone but Israel to imrpove their lot.

    Collective punishments. Hmm, let's think about this one. You put up a checkpoint, and suddenly it becomes harder for terrorists to murder civilians and it does so without killing anyone (the stories about babies dying has been disproven frequently). The security fence again has been proven to work. House demolitions have stopped, depsite the fact that they also were proven to work with parents stopping their children from becoming murderers. Closing the border isn't collective punishment, but a national right.

    Killing terrorists such as Hamas' founder? Again - it's worked. These aren't "political leaders" but terrorist leaders who send children to die for them. If you want the violence to stop then these men have to go. Clearly they have no interest in any peace that leaves Israel intact or a single Jew alive. They are indeed anti-Semitic as are their supporters and any who make excuses for them.

    Tattooing? Pure fantasy. Simple didn't happen, never will happen. Good luck finding a tattoo parlor in Israel proper anywhere other than Tel Aviv or Eilat.

  5. Israel/Nazi comparissons are generally both quite anti-Semitic and extremely ignorant.

    Under the Nazis, the Jewish population of Europe was nearly wiped out. Under the Israelis, the Arab population is flourishing.

    Under the Nazis, Jews were excluding from many professions including education and government. Under the Israelis Arabs go to university and have representation in government. At those universities thy even take advatnage of Israel's right to free speech and openly preach hatred and anti-Semitism. Arab women are also able to vote in Israel, a right denied to them in most of the Arab world.

    Under the Nazis, Jews were forcibly removed from their homes and relocated to slave labor or death camps. Under the Israelis, there are no slave labor or death camps, and the Israeli Supreme Court has defeated attempts to enforce absentee property laws that would enable Arab property to be siezed.

    Under the Nazis, it was accepted that Jews were a subhuman race - the same material is currently taught in mainstream Arab schools. In Israel there are joint Atab-Israeli schools and efforts have and are being made to ensure that any textbook containing hate speech is removed and replaced.

    Were Israel to be like Nazi Germany the Arab population would be shrinking rather than growing. Arabs wouldn't be able to work in Israel, much less be full Israeli citizens able to vote and be protected under Israeli law. There would be no Arabic spoken or used on street signs, and no Arab would carry an unrestricted Israeli passport. Instead, you would have millions of dead Arabs and a much larger Israel rather than an Israel who goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties and is seriously considering once again sacrificing territory for peace despite the fact that the Arabs have not ceased incitement, much less violence.

  6. By the way, I am a right wing conservative.

    I think those Republicans at the Capitol Hill would be very proud of me (if they were to know I exist).

  7. obviously you continue in your fantasy of a lily-white Israeli State.

    Check your Israeli papers and see whether i have been right about the Israeli military writing numbers on the arms/bodies of Palestinian captives until a retired Israeli general voiced his revulsion - it reminded him of the Holocaust. I didn't say the Palestinians were tattooed per se, but I related the penning of numbers on their arms/bodies as akin to the tattooing the Jews had suffered under the Nazis - numbering prisoners like beasts. It has been obvious that the israeli general felt the same emotion with the digusting act of physically putting number on the bodys/arms of prisoners.

    Again, you twisted my words to suggest I condemn the entire Israeli people. I identified precisely who the principal culprits are, namely those in power like Ariel Sharon and Uzi Cohen (the 2nd has a real Nazi-like attitude - it's all in the papers), but you should stop using the generalised (Israeli) case to hide these culprits. Wake up, not every Jew is an angel.

    You appalled me by justifying the unjustifiable, that Israeli oppressive actions had brought the desired results. You have suddenly, certainly and conveniently ignored basic decency, rules of law and human rights - where are your values, that you have so proudly propounded exist in Jews?

    You continue to live in dreamland. You talk about Israel caring for the Palestinians (after occupying their land) - the UNRWA (agency for ME and Palestinians) there had a frustrating time dealing with israel, who continuously and deliberately obstruct their efforts, even firing into the refugee camps for no apparent reasons, as reported by the UN agency - the Israeli military of course claimed there were snipers but those killed had been little Palestinian girls, not unlike those little Jewish girls killed by the Nazis in WWII.

    The UN workers incidentally are neutrals, headed by a Scandinavian who left out of frustration, because Israel army had continuosly refused to cooperate with his relief work - Israel had even accused him of smuggling arms for the palestinians, but ironically it was the Israeli satellite photos, intended to show the smuggling, that eventually proved the israeli lies. He left to open the way for another person in the hope of a more cooperative Israel.

    Even the israeli military creme de la creme, the air force pilots were so revolted by Israel military orders against the Palestinians that about 80+ of them refused to conduct missions - an unprecedented act by any military officer corp. But the Israeli Air Force, the most respected unit who had time and time again saved Israel with their operational effectiveness, refusing to follow orders - makes you wonder how draconian those orders must have been. Check this out if you have the guts and the principle to seek truth. I haven't even included ordinary soldiers who refused to serve against the palestinians.

    The only reason why Sharon and his cohorts haven't gone or dare not go the full length has been the restraining hands of the US - they know that while Bush and the strong American support are there, there is still a limit to the atrocities they can perpetuate - most Americans are decent folks who won't tolerate cruelty or atrocities - it's just that they are sometimes misinformed by their own govt.

    If Israel is as strong as the US politically and militarily, and don't need American political and financial support, well, who knows how far they could have gone. But I am glad they aren't, having witnessed how things have changed with Sharon - as Ehud Barak stated when Israel voted in Sharon, "Israel would lose the moral high grounds" an he has been absolutely correct. The shepherd boy David has grown up into nasty King David, who coveted Uriel's wife, and consigned the husband to his death. Thus has been the sad case of Israel, in its contemporary directions and values.

    You may list all your academic quals and experience, but don't forget, they are clouded by your emotions and personal attitude which you have repeatedly shown at bolehtalk and here, that everything Jewish is lily-white. You're entitled to your parochial views (and we all have some, but yours has been exceedingly over the top) but you'll be surprised millions of people, not just Arabs or Muslims, don't share them. And please refrain from the old tired tune of anti-semiticism or let's not forget the Holocaust. We haven't, we hope ALL israelis will not forget too - the Holocaust means genocide and oppression, and not just against the Jews alone. Jews don't have a monopoly on being slaughtered. It's just the Nazis' methodical thoroughness that imbued an element of extraordinary chilling cold bloodedness and horror to the Jewish tragedy.

    I am a Chinese, and we have had our own Holocaust in China during WWII - yes, there were/are more Chinese than anyone else, but that shouldn't hide the fact that it was genocide that the japs were perpetuating in WWII China and SE Asia - many of my relatives suffered tremendously at the hands of the Jap military. 35 million Chinese died in WWII, 300,000 at Nanjing alone where also 20,000 women were raped and had Japanese troops bayoneted many of them in their vaginas. 200,000 Chinese were used by japs as guinea pig in their germ warfare experiments. Another 200,000 women were shipped off to be sex slaves for Japs soldiers. And those figures were only for China. The SE Asian Chinese suffered tremendously as well. [in the vietnam war, 4 million viet civilians died, leaving out the 1.2 million military casualties and 600,000 maimed - I am sure you have heard of Cambodia, Rwanda]

    But when the world condemned the Chinese for wrong doings we don't scream anti-Chinese all the time or wear the Rape of Nanjing as a badge of the continuously persecuted. We stop using those WWII atrocities perpetuated against Chinese to demand the world shut up about Chinese atrocities. While we shouldn't ever forget any genocides, using the memory of the Holocaust to tuck away Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians belittles those that perished in the tragedy. The Israeli tactics of waving the memory of the Holocaust as some form of magic teflon to their misdeeds have already passed its use-by date. The world is tired of pretending the Israeli official actions against the Palestinaians has been anything but unpleasant.

    Remove those rose-tinted glasses and join the real world - have a peep from the outside at what official Israel has been doing - you may be shocked that the "Israel hero figure David was a very unpleasant man", epitomising today's State of Israel under right wing nuts like Sharon (as opposed to the Israeli people).

  8. But Sharon is a democratically elected PM, even if he is a pig.

    The Israeli folks can kick him out in the next election, and they just might.

  9. yes, democratically elected by people, by some who share his beliefs and some who have been frightened/manipulated into voting for him. Remember his provocative visit to the Temple just before the election, which threw those silly easily-provoked Palestinians into a frenzy (just the way Sharon wanted it). The Arab went wild, the Israeli voters went Sharon's way because they were worried, Ehud Barak went out, Sharon went home grinning.

    Fear and greed are the best motivators at an election, anywhere in the world. Sharon exploited that to his benefit. The Palestinians had a harder time for their stupidity, falling for wily Sharon's deliberate provocation.

  10. That's what all politicians do to win at the polls, all the way from the US to even our shores.

    Remember the elections where Ku Li "wore" the Kadazan hat with a "cross" on it!!?

  11. Yup, you sure have a good memory, though in Ku Li’s case, he f***ed himself up by innocently wearing a native hat, which was exploited by the ‘other camp’, while Sharon f***ed the ‘other camp’ up by pretending to visit the Mount Temple.

    Also, there was the former MB of Kedah, a rather prosperous looking bloke, related to the Kedah’s royalty, good modern bloke, Syed somebody?, who wore a sombrero to a party at Kedah House, and was dobbed by his rivals as too Mat Salleh-ish – out he went.

    Hats seemed to be bloody dangerous in Malaysian politics.

  12. KTemoc says:
    "Yup, you sure have a good memory, though in Ku Li’s case, he f***ed himself up by innocently wearing a native hat, which was exploited by the ‘other camp’, while Sharon f***ed the ‘other camp’ up by pretending to visit the Mount Temple."

    You seem to do the usual twisting of words (read: modern day lying). I do no see any difference between Ku Li and Ariel Sharon. So, what if one wore a hate and the other visited the temple? It is normal religious people get emotional. In Ku Li context, why did the people be so stupid to believe his opponents (i.e. BN side)? In Ariel Sharon case, why did the Muslim side be so stupid to cause violence which led Ariel Sharon to win due to fear on the Jewish side?

    KTemoc says:
    "Also, there was the former MB of Kedah, a rather prosperous looking bloke, related to the Kedah’s royalty, good modern bloke, Syed somebody?, who wore a sombrero to a party at Kedah House, and was dobbed by his rivals as too Mat Salleh-ish – out he went."

    The reason for this problem is the people. Why did they believe the lies that former MB was too Mat Salleh-ish? Why do these people vote leaders on religious grounds? Why not vote on socialist grounds?

    KTemoc put his foot into his mouth again making this stupid remark:
    "Hats seemed to be bloody dangerous in Malaysian politics."

    Why should hats be 'bloody' dangerous? Why must the Muslim-majority voter-base be so chauvinistic and anti-Socialist? So, then, Muslims are like Jews chauvinistic and anti-Socialist. So, I do not see how Malaysia differs from Israel. To finish off, I would say Israel has equal right as Malaysia to exercise authority on its territory, including whatever territory of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. If you say, Israel cannot, Malaysia too cannot as Malays stole land from the Orang Asli, Dayak and Kadazan communities and are hardly Bumiputra at all. In fact all these so-called international law are man-made and the judges who interpret these laws are themselves biased, like KTemoc.