Friday, March 22, 2013

Marginalization of Indians - the true story

FMT - Indians: A lost cause?

Ali Cordoba's article is full of passion and frustrations about the lost cause for the Indians.

Kaytee too has written a few posts in sympathy with the plight of most (though not all) Indian Malaysians, as follows:

(1) The Toddy Syndrome

(2) Malaysia's Economic Pariahs?

Okay, pray tell me, what's the difference between the Indians and Chinese, when both communities have been equally marginalized one way or another by UMNO policies for the last 40+years (since 1970, after May 13)?

Let's not split hairs by arguing that the Indians have been far more marginalized because if we are honest, we would remember there were none so marginalized than the 'new village' Chinese during the 1st Emergency (1948 to 1960) and the 2nd Emergency (also known as the Communist Insurgency War 1968 to 1989).

Chinese forcefully moved to new village
Chinese new village or prison?
Chinese new villagers' rationed food

Yet in general, ignoring isolated cases like multi billionaire Ananda Krishnan and well performing Indians of relatively small groups in professions like lawyers, doctors and military senior officers, etc, the Chinese have since done far better than the Indians.

Could it be due to their respective leadership? Well, in BN we have MCA and MIC, two of the original three original ethnic political parties, so tell me who has been the better representative? Wakakaka, though to be fair, MCA in its earlier years was not without merit in securing citizenships for many Chinese.

Then, could it be the relative population size, where the Indians are only 10% of Malaysia's population while the Chinese, originally at 50% (or even more, wakakaka) have now dwindled down to 28 24% or less through a combination of outward migration of Chinese and inward immigration (legal or otherwise, wakakaka) of neighbouring Muslims ('neighbouring' extends as far as Cambodia, Bangladesh, and even Pakistan)?

Perhaps the answer can't be found in Malaysia, not even with Waytha Moorthy fasting to gain acceptance of his Hindraf blueprint for Indians. Hindraf has been far too unreasonable in its quest for anyone to take it seriously or with goodwill. Take for example one of its 18-points demand, namely:

(18) A minimum of 20 Opposition members of Parliament are elected exclusively by the Indian Community to represent their interest at the highest political level and also as a Parliamentary Democracy check and balance and the same is safeguarded and entrenched into the Federal Constitution and which is to be increased proportionately with the increase in Parliamentary seats.

What kind of democracy or bullsh*t system will that be? I can only think of one word - racist!

Instead of attempting to overcome the evil that is racism, which no one would deny is prevalent in Malaysia especially the worst kind, institutionalized racism, Hindraf has instead jumped on the racism bandwagon by attempting to carve for itself and the people it claims to represent a cosy racist ghetto ...

... and I wouldn't be surprised if it expects its members to play the role of the so-called minimum 20 Opposition MPs.

Look at the DAP.

Contrary to criticisms and even abuses from jealous detractors, including the mandore-rizing big-headed one, DAP has the most number of Indian MPs and ADUNs without that preposterous Hindraf demand, more than MIC and all Indian-based parties combined could put together, and if you wish, please include PKR Indian MPs and ADUNs as well among the non-DAP group, including erstwhile PKR member-Anwar devotee, Gobala wakakaka.

Despite losing one Indian (Punjabi) ADUN sometime ago to seasonal tadpole metamorphosis, the DAP nationwide still have:

7 MPs
Karpal Singh, Professor Rama, Kula, Manogaran, Charles Santiago, Gobind Deo, John Fernandez

11 ADUNs
(in NS) S Veerapan, K Arumugum, P Gunasekaren, (in Penang) Professor Rama again, Jagdeep Singh, Tanasekharan, R Sanisvara Rayer, (in Perak) A Sivaesan, V Sivakumar. A Sivasubramaniam, (in Selangor) M Manoharan, and 

1 Senator
S Ramakrishnan

And that's why Indian leaders will succeed in DAP to the benefits of all Malaysians including Indians whilst Waytha Moorthy will end up like his brother who has been ignored for his jealous accusations of DAP Indian MPs and ADUNs being mandores and his wasteful and unproductive ethno-centric high drama.

Worse, what if the DAP Indians with their political experience and sense of confidence in their success stories participate in and dominate the Hindraf wish-for 20 MP positions?

Will Hindraf then seek an amendment to its No 18th point to specify that Indian politicians from the DAP, PKR, MIC, Gerakan, PPP and various other kutu Indian-based parties cannot participate for the 20 exclusive-to-Indian seats?

Ali Cordoba wasn't helpful to the Indian cause when he wrote: Gone are the days when the Alleycats dominated the Malaysian music charts, gone are the local Indian heroes in the local television programmes, and the innuendo continues. There’s no great Indian political leader left in the country, perhaps due to desertion of the Indian cause.

Instead of wallowing in self-pity, why didn't he ask about Ananda Krishnan, easily among the top three richest men in Malaysia (at one time he was touted as the richest - maybe he still is)?

What about businessman Tony Fernandes?

Just have a look at this Wikipedia page listing well-known Malaysian Indians List of Malaysian Indians which by the way includes Dr Mahathir and Anwar Ibrahim, wakakaka (though not Zambry Abdul Kadir, wakakaka again).

Two happy 'Indians', then there was one


If it's Indian Malaysian singers and actors Ali is after, there are tons of them including Guy Sebastian, a past winner of Australian Idol and currently a top personality in Australian entertainment industry.

Lamentably Ali Cordaba's article even posed questions like, just an example: Or is it that, with the stringent Malay-Chinese dominance, the Indians are being sidelined for good in local politics, thus affecting the community’s quest for survival in modern Malaysia?

... which straightaway (and shamefully)  demon-izes even the Chinese as politically dominating, instead of posing a positive question like: How did the Chinese do it? Surely we Indians can do the same.

As I mentioned, his article has been both passionate and expressive of frustration but unfortunately has also bought into a deplorable self-pitying victim-hood for the Indians, a state of mind not unlike a debilitating poisonous morass from which the deprived Indians, if they were to believe that's their irredeemable fate, will find difficulty climbing out of.

Once I published a post titled Hated by Indra which included extracts from a 1993 novel by Martin Booth titled ‘The Iron Tree’.

The story centred around an Irish Catholic priest in China of yonder days (1900). I came to the page which described the priest strolling along a road beside the river that flowed past Wuchow, the village he was stationed at. He saw Chinese coolies (labourers) hauling blocks of stones from a barge to the town. These were the lines I was drawn to:

The blocks were several feet square and each took two men with a substantial bamboo pole slung between their shoulders to lift it. These pairs of men struggled up the steep bank with the blocks, their breath coming in starved gasps by the time they reached the road, their horny bare feet kicking up dust as they staggered off into the town.

Pausing for some minutes, I watched the procession, wondering what life expectancy might be of these near-slaves. They could not be able to look forward to long lives and it was of no surprise to me the British had found it so easy to addict the Chinese to opium. Anyone with such an existence would want frequent release into a better world. [...]

Such was the lot of many Chinese in a China of earlier days, as would have been the lot too for many Indians in India.

But look at China and India today, bearing in mind India has been touted as the world's biggest democracy with all the attendant politically assured freedom of choice. Take just one example - their respective performance in the 2008 Olympics, which I believe had the Indian PM commenting angrily on what was wrong with India (1 gold, 2 bronze, total 3 medals, overall position 50th) when China could emerge top nation in the Games (51 gold, 21 silver, 28 bronze, total 100 medals, overall position 1st).

Yes, we need to ask why?

In my post Hated by Indra I also wrote:

I return to Martin Booth’s most observant two sentences of “They could not be able to look forward to long lives and it was of no surprise to me the British had found it so easy to addict the Chinese to opium. Anyone with such an existence would want frequent release into a better world.”

Thus to seek release into a 'better world', the deprived Chinese of yonder years went for opium, while their Indian counterparts went for toddy (and in some cases, ganja). I fear that even today some poor Indian Malaysians are still going for toddy.

Seven years ago I wrote The Toddy Syndrome where I stated:

Probably the most deprived and marginalized ethnic group in Malaysia, a land of bountiful plenty, is the Indian community. […]

The typically hard working but unskilled Indian struggles at the lower scale of employment, earns enough to live from hand to mouth day to day, has no or little after-hours amenities, has many children as a result of their sole entertainment (not unlike Chinese farmers in remote rural areas), at the end of work dashes off to the local ‘pub’ for several tin mugs of watered toddy, gets himself pissed drunk to blank out his agonizing frustration, apprehension, worries, physical/mental pain, hopelessness and anger at his-fate-decided-by-the-gods. [...]

The evil toddy ... has become the straw to hang on for many socially-drowning Indians. Its devastating effect produces the syndrome, but the disease is hopelessness in an increasing competitive world that is rapidly leaving many Indian Malaysians behind.

So Aneh, what have you done for your Indians instead of reading about Ali Cordoba questioning or suspecting even the Chinese (together with the Malays) for their stringent dominance of politics to the disadvantage of Indians.

Continuing, I wrote: Their children are born into immediate disadvantage. Their community is looked down upon. They are assigned ownership of Malaysian crimes which cannot be attributed to foreign migrant workers. They have become the debris, flotsam and garbage of Malaysian society.

Such is the unhappy lot of the chronic poor, impoverished people who would be exploited for the economic and sensual gratification of the ruling class and the rich.

Where was and is the Indian leadership? How did Uthayakumar, a professed Indian leader, deal with this other than to deeply offend the very people who could (or even might already) have helped. Has any senior politician from BN or Pakatan taken heed of Waytha Moorthy's self-sacrificial fasting?

As I suspect that the answer to the Indian Malaysian problems might not be found in Malaysia, let's look at India.

One only needs to read Aravind Adiga’s Man Booker Prize winning book 'The White Tiger’ to realize the evil of class-caste exploitation and persecutions in India, the world’s [so-called] biggest democracy.

And that is precisely the problem at the heart of the Indian Malaysians' lost cause.

No society has been more affected by class oppression than Indian society, made worse by its religious sanctified caste system.

But thousands of years of religious and societal indoctrination have convinced the lower caste, despite their modern education, to meekly accept their man's (not God's) assigned positions.

I recall an Indian friend, a Dalit*, who lamented he couldn't marry the woman he loved (and who loved him too) because she was from a higher caste.

'untouchable' or 'pariah' in the Indian caste system, but subsequently euphemised by Mohandas Mahatma Gandhi into Harijans (children of God). But the caste refused to accept even that and called themselves Dalit, which means 'The Oppressed'.

I looked at him in shock and asked why in today’s world he and his sweetheart would even accept such nonsensical social discrimination. All he did was to moan and groan and cry out in despair that it was impossible to break free from the shackles of the Hindu caste system.

Lamentably he was a willing captive of an evil system. Of course with such an attitude, he didn't marry her.

There is no greater evil for Indians than their caste system, especially one instituted and sanctified by so-called religion.

Aeons ago, people in a society were divided into different groups according to their varna (colour), and thus was borne the caste system.

There would still be those who defend the caste system by arguing the system was established after working out the complementary needs of society, which is pure grade bull dust.

Read my 2008 post Cast not thy untouchable shadow on doctors to know why the above pro-caste spin is pure bull dust.

You would discover to your horror the sheer utter iniquity and unmitigated evil of the Indian caste system, when a young woman and her baby perished because doctors ignored their Hippocratic oaths and refused to touch-treat them for no other reason than they were Dalits.

Naturally (or coincidentally) those who originally established the caste system and those who continue to defend it were/are placed at the top as the Brahmanic class. And when such a caste system has been hereditary-based, it was/is racist.

The divisive and oppressive protocols of the caste system are deep rooted in the Indian psyche, as was in the case of my Dalit matey, more so when it has been supported strongly by religious figures who even politicized it, for example (a quote): Swami Vivekenanda (1863–1902) ... argued that the revitalization of India could only occur if people returned to the Aryan virtues found in Vedic texts. Attributing Aryans with distinct physiological attributes, he strongly favoured the maintenance of racial and caste divisions.

Holy sacred bull dust!

Closer at home, in 2006 the disgraceful apartheid-like consciousness nurtured by the Indian caste racism was exposed in 2006 in an article by Malaysian veteran journalist Baradan Kuppusamy writing in Malaysiakini.

He revealed how MIC's internal party manoeuvrings were governed by caste during its 2006 party election campaign and highlighted the tragic case of (the late) MG Pandithan, then president of the Indian Progressive Front (IPF), but who was formerly from MIC.

What was sad had been the ugly business of the caste system discriminating against Pandithan because he was from the lowest caste, the Dalit.


Though he was ousted from MIC, his influence in the Indian community was so strong that a stream of MIC brass trooped in to visit him when he was hospitalized - separately of course, wakakaka, because few in MIC, especially those from the so-called higher caste, liked to be seen visiting ... gasp ... an 'untouchable' or 'pariah' which if we remember, was what a Dalit was originally called.

His visitors included his mortal enemy Samy Vellu, Palanivel (then Samy’s protégé), and naturally the (then) beneficiary of Pandithan's anti-Samy Vellu campaigning, Subramaniam Sinniah (or S Subramaniam).

But the sad part of all was while Pandithan was helping to get votes for Subramaniam, the latter was trying to put some distance between them.

Baradan Kuppusamy attributed the seemingly strange behaviour of Subramaniam to the MIC consciousness of caste. Upper caste MIC members would react badly if Subramaniam consorted with Pandithan, a Dalit.

Upper caste, my bloody foot. Those MIC leaders were no more than a bunch of pariahs, and I don’t mean that word in a caste sense. They were just plain @rse-h*les.

Naturally Samy Vellu’s Tamil Nesan exploited this disgraceful caste discrimination by reporting that a Subramaniam victory would result in Pandithan, a Dalit, becoming Subramaniam’s successor as MIC president.

Baradan said Subramaniam was pissed off with the fabrication, and unfortunately for him (or maybe deservedly because of his lack of moral courage) he lost some votes because of that.

S Subramaniam
is his political career now a closed chapter?

From this recollection, please tell me what sparkling leadership could the marginalized Indians ever expect from such crass caste-conscious politicians?

And perhaps from this, we are just beginning to obtain a nasty glimpse of the why's, how's and what's that has resulted in the abysmal lack of advancement of a large sector of the Indian community in the last 50-ish years, while their non-Malay companions, the Chinese Malaysian, have in general managed to stay ahead of them.

Perhaps Ali Cordoba should have borne in mind the Indian subconscious, a psyche internalized by caste indoctrination for thousands of years, when he decided to write on the issue of skin colour, as follows:

... the Indian woman ..... added that she was not working in a sane or fair environment, where some of her colleagues would at times behave like bullies or show disdain for her colour and creed.

It was never safe for an Indian, man or woman, she added, to hold a job in Malaysia because of the ostracism against Indians and people of her pigmentation, which she would insist included the Africans and even other Muslims who are not Malays.

As mentioned, Ali Cordoba needn't look elsewhere or any further than the 3000-year old Rig Veda to know who first discriminated against some Indians because of their pigmentation, and who had imbued them deeply with a crushing caste-class conscious cringe about the colour of their skin and the fate of their births, specifically:

Rig Veda III.34.9 - He gained possession of the Sun and Horses, Indra obtained the Cow who feedeth many. Treasure of gold he won; he smote the Dasyus [dark skinned people], and gave protection to the Aryan color;


Rig Veda IX.73.5 - Blowing away with supernatural might from earth and from the heavens the swarthy skin which Indra hates.

Indra who hates swarthy (dark) skins

I opine the Indian caste system with all its prejudices, racism and consequential oppression prevents or doesn't encourage true leadership, philanthropy or compassion for the poor and highly marginalized Indians, hence the community's marginalized predicament as compared to, say, the Chinese.

I've used the word 'sad' more than a few times in this post to describe my feelings about the wretched and oppressive caste system, but surely the most sad of all must be that many Indians who, like my Dalit matey, have been and are willing captives to an ancient evil that discriminates against them for no other reason than the accident of their births.

Thus, in my opinion, seeking remedy from Indian-based political parties won't be the solution. To address their multi-millennium-old problems, the Indians need a multiracial party like the DAP or the PKR (though Nallakaruppan and Gobalakrishnan won't agree to the latter, wakakaka).

But look, if the Indians don't like Uthayakumar's mandore-parties, namely the DAP and PKR, why not ask Dr Mahathir or Anwar Ibrahim for help? Afterall, Wikipedia categorizes both of them as famous Indian Malaysians, so remind them of this, wakakaka.

Once Brahmin brothers (a la Kaurava or Pandava, wakakaka)
but what now? Osiris and Seth, wakakaka again

And being Muslims I am sure they wouldn't and shouldn't be concerned about caste, though alas (or Allah swt) I have come across a Mauritius Indian Muslim who boasted to me he's a Brahmin and that his Dalit boss dared not look at him directly in the face.

Well ........ Millions and millions of Indians embraced Islam in order to liberate their caste-oppressed lives and I had this haughty hubristic hifalutin (so-called) Muslim telling me what a proud Brahmin he (then) was.

Wasn't that pure testimony to the pervading insidiousness of the Indian caste system?


  1. This is wahy India will never be able to take on China in the race to developed status. India will remain a 50-50 country. With the upper caste living in style while the lower caste remains where it is. And to make matters worse in Indian mother of all elections the citizens do not cast their vote but vote their caste.

  2. "... the citizens do not cast their vote but vote their caste" - very droll, wakakaka

  3. Ask Mahathir for help? Here's what he will reply (from his Malay Dilemma) :

    " ... The perpetual position of being in the minority and underprivileged creates a desire in the new immigrants to merge with the majority and acquire the privileged position. The immediate loss of original culture, language and racial characteristics is insignificant when compared with the privileges to be gained as citizens... "

    Mahathir had, true to his words, 'lost' his original culture and 'acquired the (ultimate) privileged position'.

  4. Actually ahh.....there's a solution for these poor caste-away Indians in Malaysia. Where else in the whole wide world could one change your 'low-class' race to another ( and into a privileged class to boot )just by converting to another religion, as amply exemplified by our once-top guys the ex PM and the ex DPM?

    Tunggu apa lagi ? Convert en masse lah and all the problems of the marginalised Indians will be solved need for fasting or threatening or drowning in mugs of cheap toddy.

  5. Your argument that the plight of Indians is in the culture and not political parties is rational. But your deduction that DAP and PKR is their solution contradict all your argument and does not follow. What has DAP and PKR done to tackle all this cultural problem? It's precisely what Hindraf argues? They can recognize Malay centric issue like Felda but not displacement of Indian estate workers? Something wrong with your conclusion. Non sequitur.

  6. Having our empathies for the Indians, they should analysis the root of their predicament (besides your class argument). The economic state of destitute (besides a possible lack of self determination) lies in political will. Similar to the Chinese, they have their venacular schools but the difference one finds is their leaders (wheather political or otherwise).

    The question is, what has MIC done for them? For that matter, all the offshoots from MIC in BN. What has communal leaders done for them? Or even towering tycoons among their ranks?

    The bitter lesson one learns is that MIC kept the masses where they wanted them - grovelling. Unlike MCA who energized their base to support programs and education among the Chinese.

    Therefore, doesn't Hindraf need to think about the fact of who can lead the Indians and pull them out of the doldrums?

    A friend mentioned that his two kids were not allowed to study Tamil in a Kebangsaan school because the principal said they lacked numbers - only 6 students. Edu Ministry guidelines is min 10 students.

    Instead of organizing a class outside of school or trying to recruit Chinese to make up the numbers - he just gave up. Que sera sera although he is an accountant by profession.

    Therefore, Hindraf's political request is the start of an Indian NEP. One for you and one for me. From politics, there will be equal demands for an economic share. For this ask Ananda or Tony for tips...

    1. My comment of 9.40 was in response to Ellese. I agree with your comments in that unlike MIC, MCA for all its warts wakakaka has done some good for the Chinese community especially in earlier years. MIC leaders only want their supporters' hero-worshipping and kissing of their feet.

      I also agree with your assessment of Hindraf's racial approach to teh Inidna problem, which I mentioned in my post. Hindraf might as well request for an autonomous state and run it like a Tamil enclave (but then what about the non-Tamil Indians?)

  7. It's not so much culture per se but the mindset that has been conditioned by religious indoctrination. Of course it's arguable whether we can separate culture from mindset, but nonetheless I did present the Chinese Malaysian story for comparison. I question why when both Chinese and Indians are hard working people, why have the latter accepted and resigned themselves to their deprived state, unlike the Chinese most of whom strive in practical terms to better their situation - most succeed tho' some didn't but nonetheless the unsuccessful Chinese would always strive.

    My opinion of the poorer Indians, unlike Chinese, is that they have been in large part (not completely of course) suffering from an internalized issue which in real terms prevents their helping themselves (resigned to their fate) and each other (because of the divisive oppressive caste system).

    DAP secular social-democratic policies can help, among other benefits, draw the poorer Indians away from a unique Indian environment of stratified 'self-worth' (feudalistic caste-ridden society, which incidentally Malays also suffer from to some extent due to the Indian influence in their culture) into mainstream Malaysian thinking.

    Hindraf, MIC etc will only draw them deeper into the sort of thinking I argue they suffer from. Consider the sad case of MG Pandithan.

    It's their mindset that DAP can help change over time ... unless of course UMNO wants to take over - please do because then we'll be TRULY helping the poor Indians.

    1. Of course culture, the sociological aspect was not covered since you always do an excellent job. Even your brief analysis of religion - the concept of "karma", "maya" and "samsara" may have a bearing in pre-disposition of thinking.

      So we need to look at things objectively - what has MIC done for the community the last 50 years and what has MCA done. (So for Ellese, unlike your thinking, many people around are not shere droids following party lines). Hindraf is only asking for further handouts, thereby re-inforcing the state of mentality - ie. "we are beggars"

      The Chinese on the other hand are pragmatic. They have supported MCA & Gerakan for donkey years, ditch them for another lover when needed but can also response to the call of support and comaraderie (especially when Tun nearly had his ass whip). If the Chinese are gravitating towards DAP today, it isn't that the universe is turning red as some pro-BN bloggers try to paint. Its a case of MCA and their infighting coupled with the state of "seedless durian." The hubric call of asking the "pendatang" to leave may have also been a big political mis-step.

      All said and done, dear Hindraf... what about the Orang Asal, Kadazan-Dusuns & Ibans? Isn't it hubris to also consistently talk about Malaysia in terms of Malay, Chinese & Indians? Therefore, you may be right... a multi-cultural approach could work to uplift every community.

    Ktemoc's orgasmic response to Kit Siang's Gelang Patah candidature.

    But here is a more sober and fact-based assessment


    1. Yes Kalai

      Despite my orgasmic letter, I did state:

      "So much is at stake for BN but no more than that for Lim KS" meaning there's no certainty in Lim KS's victory

      Also, "Also, unlike many BN politicians who prefer to huddle in safe and comfortable blue ribbon seats for their own political interests, Lim KS is prepared to put his political career where his mouth is. He goes where his party wants him." - same cautionary advice.

      As they say, in a game the ball is round, and in politics we won't know who's the winner until the votes have been counted (provided the EC doesn't switch its role to and fro as referee as well as the 12th player for MCA) wakakaka.

    2. Come on la! You mean you really trust EC hah! What happen during Sibu by election? Even the returning officer has mentioned the majority wrongly.....hahahaha....DAP doesn't pursue because they won


      Anyway, this is one of the Indians I admire. Apart from Seenivasagam brothers......hehehehe & his side kick Mak Fei Hong......Hahahaha

      Oh my fucking god!

  9. kt, this is a poor writing, a condescending one. u replace race and their mindset/culture (whatever u call it) at a diff set of date, era and place, it tell almost the same.

    wrt indian plight, i think helen has a more solid and sensible contention, that said, i must state that some hindraf supporters (or leaders?) r truly idiot.

    1. Helen has a more sympathetic or empathized approach, more in emotional concert with Hindraf thinking. But I took a step backwards to argue that (Hindraf approach) would be following a failed (uniquely Indian) approach which had abysmally failed in the last 50 years. Hindraf doesn't want to see the woods but prefer to grab a couple of tress here and there to plant in its own Tamil forest.

      Call it condescending if you like but yes, the truth hurts, always does. But it doesn't hide my sympathy for the marginalized Indians. I just want them to shrug off their feudalistic mindset and stop feet kissing and bullshit garlanding of so-called VIPs, and be confident of their own worth, and not to cringe at their so-called lower caste denomination. F* caste

    2. ok, that’s a fair point. but i have to say this, the chinese and malay (commercial & government) did discriminate against the indian and this is also a truth, but the sad part is as you write, many indian are not spare from discriminate indian, n that is the ugly part.

    3. yes HY, we must be brave to admit we're by large racists of one form or another, whether mildly racist or blatantly so.

      Thus, along that line, we have to also admit some Indians have shown they were/are racists. In one organization I worked in, I was one of their victims. But I bear no grudge against Indians because I saw (still do) those racist discrimination against me (and other Chinese and even Malays) as that by perverted racist individuals.

    4. Kaytee,
      Do care to eleborate more on your suffering under the hands of the Indians.......
      Like Indians especially from India loves to hire their kampung folks to take on jobs even though you are more competent

      Me Fucking spot on right!!!!????? Hahahahaha

  10. Dearest HY. I understand your response. This article shocks my cultural sensitivities especailly before coffee. However, to be honest, if the issue was raised, won't we all be thinking the same, like the China-India paradigm but out of due respect, not speak of it?

    In his follow-up comments, he has said both Indian & Chinese are a hard working people, with equal opportunities but may be pre-disposition differently. Indians in the US and UK thrive well unless we again want to make a distinction between northern Indians and Tamilians (lets not go down that path).

    But the distinction for such sucess is that there is no specific Indian political system for Indians in the US or UK. So in Msia, MIC is suppose to take care of the Indians through the auspices of Big Brother. Therefore, Big Brother cuts a share of the pie for the community via MIC disbursement. Then what happens?

    So, as in most political ploys, we now blame Big Brother, the Chinese etc for this current plight. The question here is - what does Hindraf really want? How to get from point A to B. Shouldn't Hindraf be helping reshape Indian thinking and be a social reform movement among their community and the larger audience? Yes, go to the polls but do it on one's own merit..

    Leave aside DAP but take a cue from PRM & PSM as a miniscule example of fighting back.

    PS. We will leave Helen for another day

    1. Hi Anon, let me speak/question with respect, what if we see from tha angle of Japan-China paradigm, Europe-China paradigm and USA-China paradigm, let say between 1840 to 1980? We might have to take into account that China went through the many unfair treaties, wars involced invasion, civil, and borders, revolution to overturn Qing, KMT, failed campaign and policies such as Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, and many millions died. The recent progress largely due to the adoption of capitalism without giving the people much choice in civil and political rights, there are vast difference with India isn’t it? Hu Shih said India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border, I think this is how generally Chinese perceive the spiritual greatness of India though Hu Shih also said practically all the prominent leaders of thought in China today are openly agnostics and even atheists.

      Reshape thinking is a chicken and egg (education and poverty) problem, these apply across everyone, what is equal opportunities when civil servant include GLC is largely occupied by one race, and private were mostly controlled by Chinese? The biggest impact were the urbanized and nationalized of foreign own plantation that caused the many estate worker loss their livelihoods (I lived quite near to one Socfin Estate), Malay and Chinese suffered much less in this respect, and in no way I see MIC leader is much vary with those at Umno and MCA, all are equally corrupt thus Indian problem are not unique,

      I don’t know what PRM and PSM have achieved in the past many years, but I doubt BN ever perceived them as crucial enough as an opponent, the local politic on the large part still indulged in issue of race, religion, and sleaze politics, thus PR (PKR) do have their role to fight BN. My critique toward Hindraf is not their race centric position, but lack of stance and consistency, and impatient.

    2. We have no arguments on your points. In fact, Indian civilization goes even more way back to the Indus valley and the whole concept of Aryan pre-desposition. However, lets talk about today - for example BRIC. As pointed out in this article, India is the largest democratic state vs a so called "totalitarian" China. Visit China today, ask anyone on the streets about curbed civil liberties and they will ask you "what?"

      China is a "child of its age" - of its past, its culture, its upheavals, its position today and its need to survive tomorrow. Ruling 1.3 billion isn't easy. Her stance against Christianity was a necessary evil especially after seeing the activism of the Catholic Church in Poland and the dismantling of Eastern Europe. But what is her stance today towards Vatican? Then came Glasnost in Russia. After the years of political upheaval and the "oppression" of barbaric foreigners, internal disorder will continue to lead to be weak.

      But the point being made here is Indians and their evolution as a community in Malaysia and if you want to beg the question, back to their roots in India. The point being made in this article is (esp. Hindraf), "are they barking up the wrong tree?" and "is there a possibility that the political & communal system plus expectations is based on a certain pre-disposition based on culture and world view?"

      Please see comments from Anonymous9:53 pm, March 23, 2013. In built, a darker skin Indian pays more hommage to a fairer skin Indian. The writer links this to his/her observation that the waiter believed that was accepted because of karma. A few months ago, there was also an outburst on Indian blogs about a fairer skin Indian girl deriding a Tamil (darker skin) person.

      Sorry to the owner of this blog - too chiong hei. But in conclusion, Hindraf's request for this & that is too melodramatic. Although PKR & PSM are not the force they use to be but take for example Dr. Jeyakumar. The guy who challenged Samy Vellu several times and lost. Considered a Don Quixote by the opposition, now they want to replace him after drinking from the cup of Bacchus. Our point is that if Hindraf believe in themselves, have dignity to go in alone even if there is no support rather than crying papa or mama.

    3. aiyah I love being chong hei lah, which was why I strated this blog wakakaka

    4. ok keep it short n simple.

      1) i think the right question to ask the chinese is do u want to be given a choise to choose your leader n govt.

      2) during a gathering after stpm result was out, a classmate that score very well said loudly who care about nep as long as we work hard. the rest of us not doing that well can only staring at each other, speechless. it must be our fault that both who got better n worst result deserve something better. since work hard is the answer, we shouldn't criticize nep, right?

      3) we accuse the 10% of being racist and forget about the 60%, or we do not want to speak about it out of respect? r the 60% barking at the wrong tree as well? if caste is the cause, pray tell what samy vellu can do about it, he is also one indian?

    5. 1) Everyone should have a choice to choose whoever they want but which political system works best? Democracy ala US style? Democracy ala India style? Maybe Marxism or redefined socialism? All political systems are like a fragile eco-system. They need to evolve and if change happens, it must come internally not from external forces.

      But to answer you, every family has different house rules. What works for one not necessarily works for another.

      2) Every thinking Malay knows that the greatest benefactors and also losers of the NEP are themselves. The longer it runs, it will make the Malays less competitive in the face of globalization in terms of education, technology, social & interlectual development and economically as a people. The second greatest losers are the Indians, Orang Asal, Kadazan, Ibans etc. Chinese are a species of their own. They have had centuries of training - earthquake, floods, famine, epidemics, slavery, war... so just to have a simple meal is enough - ie."have you eaten?" as the main greeting...

      3) Unfortunately, Malaysian Indians (especially Tamilians) have enmeshed their destiny with MIC. This is not surprising. Bro. Samy in their culture represents the local village leader, hero where one dreams to escape a few moments of misery (giving you hope against all hope), the guru or even swami. We are not being condesending but this is a social and anthropological look at culture. Remember the famous MGR of Tamil movies?

      Once that "father" figure is displaced, the community is thrown into a tailspin since other claimants to the thrown were disposed of much earlier. Hindraf & Makkal Sakti had a very rare window to rally the Indian power base social-politically but we know the rest of the story. The Chinese who sympathize with the Indian plight also lend support for Hindraf until....

      For the right or wrong reasons, today Najib has filled that "father-figure" role.

    6. 1) I think democracy ala China style will be fine, have you no hear of socialism with Chinese characteristics? But of course essentially whatever style you want, you must at least possess the basic feature of democracy like election, rule of law, freedom of expression, speech and press, and etc, and contrary to authoritarian, the people can often change government without a revolution. And only the Chinese in China can provide an answer whether they want or do not want democracy ala China style, we don’t live there so our opinion is remain as opinion.

      2) Bro, affirmative action have it pros and cons, however the reality here in Malaysia are every parties be it BN or PR never ever reject affirmative action ie NEP. And it seems the Chinese are one of the fiercest groups that sound critical toward the NEP, no?

      3) I read Arthur Henderson Smith Chinese Characteristic and I blurted ouch, I read Luxun and I blurted ouch. But somehow I tend to agree with your last 2 paragraph.

    7. Hahaha.. I've always enjoyed your comments here and elsewhere, especially the KTee Fanboy thingy. I think we can all have a good laugh on this since life shouldn't be so serious... Looking at things here, its like a big circus.

      1) My response will be too long but think Ching Dynasty, weak Sun Yat Sen, Cultural Revolution and finally Dengism ("to be rich is glorious" and the cat-mouse analogy). The common citizen isn't interested in democracy. If they prefer a freer society, better enviroment & food safety, they just go overseas with bags of cash and just settle there.

      2) Chinese like to fight lah!! Busy body... Has the Chinese suffered under the NEP? Look at Forbes list, Chinese occupy 90%. Others are either proxies or the true beneficiaries of NEP. The true beneficiaries of NEP are not even on the list... Wakakaka.

      The part of the NEP that effects Chinese most is in the education system (especially quotas), not in discounted homes, MARA loans, business assist etc. Agree? Therefore, the NEP is more damaging to other communities and it will eventually consume the Malays themselves since Chinese have other options.

      3) Ouch too!! Wakakaka

    8. Ouch! We all now turned into a wakaka or at least become a commenters with wakaka characteristic :)

      1) I think only less than 10% can have the option you mentioned. read the sad affair of their migrant laborers, China today sound more like a capitalist's republic rathar than one peoples's republic.

      2) I am a proud Chinese (not the aku cina type) and i believe i know both the Chinese good and bad pretty well and deep. We are no different from Indian and Malay to shitf blame to others, Malaysian style, and i think you overrate the Chinese.

      However bro, your assertion on the effect toward chinese pertaining to education system is insightful, thus the preserve of the Chinese school at the current stage is a must no matter how some people criticize this and complain that. This is also what you call as "other option".

      Lastly, happy wakaka.

    9. 1) Yes, although there is no official public reports of the Gini coefficiency, the widening gap is apparent. Therefore, as mentioned the government is painfully aware that ruling 1.3 billion people without closing the gap, weeding out corruption, they are sitting on a tinderbox. However, seeing Glasnost and the long lines waiting to buy bread post Glasnost plays in the minds of officials.

      The break-up of the Soviet state was also equally painful. As one can see, they also have their own "restive" provinces. Therefore, Western democracy may not work in pulling the country together.

      2) I doubt that many of us here (in this blog) are not the Aku Cina type. We need to be honest unlike some... Aku Cinas. The greatest self-criticism of the Chinese is that we can and may be ready to sell ourselves and everything around us for wealth and self-presevation. Modern Chinese (China) examplifies this. This is why the Chinese saw a loop-hole in the NEP and the rise of the Ali-Baba model. Chinese are not interested to run the country or to play a more proactive role (except the younger generation like elsewhere who feel that the older generation has failed to address theirs) but to play a more background role economically. This may be generalizing things too much but they are personal views.

      Deng Xiao Peng said that much can be accomplished if China remain low key but becoming stronger each day. The last 20 years has proven him right.... subtility.. which our detractors may be partially right.

      3) The "other option" is already in place... Chinese venacular school or international school, private colleges or to Singapore and worst case scenario, overseas, then everyone packs the bag and leaves. Its the left-behinds that need to plod on who are mainly from the venacular school, then drop off the educational cliff since family resouces are limited either in finances, initiative or command of other languages. Case in point is the JB girl who stomped on Najib's photo.

      Therefore, the NEP is most damaging in this aspect.. not a cohesive plan to uplift the standards of the country across board by a single education system that befits globalization and works on meritocracy. Therefore, things like a quota system in civil service, armed forces etc are the least of our worries if the education base is in place.

      Anyway, cheers bro...

  11. Actually Malaysia had a beautiful plan all along to alleviate poverty of all races.

    It is called the NEP. Those of you from the 1970s will remember the 2 prongs that were catch-phrases for a new dawn in Malaysian society : “poverty eradication regardless of race” and “restructuring society to eliminate the identification of race with economic function".

    Had those in power faithfully adhered to those words we would not be talking of the Indian poor today. How is it the implementation was allowed to deviate by the government, including MIC politicians who were also part of it? How did it evolved into being associated with privileges for one race only (including the rich ones)?

    So much so that 'NEP' have now become a antagonistic word in our vocabulary, a divisive chasm in our race relations, its meaning now being associated with inclusiveness vs exclusiveness, privileged vs marginalised.

    1. NEP is neutral as an entity until it gets perverted. One would be tempted to reply to RPK's recent discussion on the NEP except that through his logic, others may be wrong since "he was there". Unfortunately a few courses at Cambridge doesn't make a man. With respect to him for age & experience, the Chinese & Indians did not speak up because they loved the system!!

      As pointed out by his eye witness account, the fighting went on between DSAI & Rafidah... not sure about what but one can figure.. apapap perhaps? wakakaka

      MCA and Chinese tycoons saw the loopholes and quickly jumped on it. For example, view this video clip on property ("Utopia milik Siapa?")

      Does all the developer tycoons getting awards look Indian to you? Malay? Do they look worried about NEP or other mish mash?

      On the other hand, MIC especially in the hands of smaller brother saw the Ringgit printing presses and fiefdom through the NEP but failed to share this secret with the estate. But some caught on when they bought the first mobile phone or toy aeroplane...wakakaka

      So now Hindraf wants to bring the community back 50 years and start all over again... except that the action heros have change (sorry to say this but they need to save on the melodrama).

  12. As a twice-born (ahem) Kyshatriya Jat,I can understand why the upper castes are unwilling to give up their dominant position. I can also understand why anyone (including children of coolies from China) does not want to share what they got.

    I agree with Kaytee that the issue is why should the dalits (harijans) in Malaysia put up with such discrimination. The Malaysian Constitution is clear that all Malaysians are equal. Perhaps that is just in the law. The dalits (mainly Tamil speakers)in Malaysia have a number of choices -- convert to Islam (like Mahathir Kutty) or Christianity like so many others. Bit harder (as they will have to learn to read and write a foreign language) convert to Sikhism which believes in One God and rejects the Hindu caste system.

    The other choice -- much,much more important -- is to uplift themselves economically through education, hard work (Tamils are no strangers to this) and thrift. They should also patronise each others businesses so that there is a volume of intra-Tamil trade and commerce that will create higher paying jobs for Tamil speakers.

    But the hardest thing for them (I believe) is to get out of the victim mindset. They must accept their situation is their own problem, that others richer than them are an example and not a threat to them, that nobody owes them a living and only economic progress will give them the respect they truly deserve as our fellow human beings.

    They must never accept anything less than the best from themselves no matter what their situation in life. Remember that mere abuse from idiots should not stop us from achieving our true potential as a human being.

    They must stand up and be courageous in face of anything and everything thrown at them. Tamils did this willingly and proudly many times (remember the NUPW that worked so hard to improve the lot of Estate workers?) and even not so long ago when they took on UMNO and endured all the threats (including one from Samy Vellu)and the pain of being attacked with water cannon, etc.

    They must "tahan susah" as no worthwhile journey is without its trials and tribulations. But each dalit has to have such resolve and work together to uplift their economic situation. Begin small, work together, deal with one another honestly and fairly and stay away from the BIG fish so no scams (e.g.Maika Holdings) can touch you. Start today.

    1. My friend's father operated an upscale restaurant and one of the waiters was a Dalit indian. Tall, swarthy and well built, he looks quite glorious in his rather splendid uniform. He gives very good service to all his customers but one could not fail to notice he's especially courteous, (in fact, quite servile) to those light-skinned indians customers who frequented that restaurant.

      When asked why he 'admires' them so.....he replied that these people deserved the lives they now have, being of 'upper class and rich and fair skinned' (!) According to him, it's his karma that he reincarnated to the lowest rank and must go through such suffering to atone.

      Is this Hinduism ? Or is this belief Buddhism ? Whatever, people like him seemed to accept their 'fate', hence we see such like him bowing, scrapping and 'kissing the feet' of the higher caste indians ?

    2. there's a saying that a prophet (I use prophet in the most generic sense) is never believed/respected in his homeland - which I reckon applies to

      - Jesus Christ, where Jews consider him an apostate,
      - initially for Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) in Mecca who was forced to flee to Medina,
      - John cousin of Jesus, also known as by Christians as John the Baptist, or Yahya ibn Zakariyya, where there is a religious order Mandaeism adoring him as The Messiah,
      - and to answer your question, Buddha or Siddhatta Gautama.

      Very few Indians in India (or even elsewhere) are Buddhists though many worship Buddha.

      The reason for this was when Buddhism first grew in popularity in India (partly because it discarded the caste system) the Hindu priests were worried about losing out completely to the newcomer. They quickly spun the fabrication that Buddha was just an avatar of Lord Krishna and thus by absorbing Buddha as a deity into Hinduism, re-gathered Hindus, even those who converted to Buddhism, back to Hinduism. Today Buddhism is relatively just a minor (almost insignificant) religion in India.

      To get to the point, Buddhism rejects the nonsense of caste.

    3. Thanks KT....for taking the trouble to explain about the Buddhism aspect in the Hindu religious belief.

      Many a times I was quite baffled and rather saddened when my indian friends and acquaintances invariably show their obvious preference for the fairer skin complexion. Have they not heard of "Black Is Beautiful?" First they must love themselves to even tackle this problem. But that does not mean I am making light of this situation, as all these complications faced by them tie back to so many aspects stretching back to hundreds if not thousands of years ago.