Thursday, March 07, 2013

Military hardware used in Lahad Datu - khas untuk Dr Kua

Free Malaysia Today's news article What role did the Scorpene subs play? reported:

Yo Dr Kua, Mabuhay

KUALA LUMPUR: Suaram director Kua Kia Soong has questioned the strategy used by the armed forces in Lahad Datu.

“What role did the Scorpene submarines play in the Lahad Datu crisis?

“Is it wise to use jet fighters like the Hornets against a motley group of 250 Sulu men in a 4km radius? Shouldn't we be using helicopters such as the Apache instead?

“Where was the Navy to prevent the invaders from coming in?” he asked during the launch of Malaysian civil society’s 20-point demands for the 13th general election at the Kuala Lumpur Selangor Chinese Assembly Hall this morning.

Now, while I respect Dr Kua, and some of his points as reported in the FMT news article have been reasonable (not presented above), I consider his queries on the use of Scorpene and type of military strike aircraft in the Lahad Datu crisis, where his stated preference was for Apache attack heli-gunship instead of F-18 Hornets, as just plain silly.

SAF Apache heli-gunship

I am being polite in using the word 'silly' because while there are other words more appropriate they are far more rude, and I hesitate to use any word ruder than 'silly' against a man I respect and like.

For a start, does the TUDM (RMAF) or the Malaysian Army possess Apache heli-gunships? I know the Singaporeans do, so was Dr Kua suggesting we should have borrow some from them to use in Lahad Datu?

The RMAF did possess (not sure now) some Alouette gunships but those were meant more for sanitising (clearing) helipads of bobby traps and mines during the Emergency to ensure soldiers landed there do not walk onto those devices. But the Alouette gunships were not attack helicopters per se.

RMAF Alouette heli-gunship

The F-18's and BAE Hawks have been the best possible choices for fast ground-strikes to enhance the element of surprise in the dawn attack, required munition load and of course safety for the pilots. And the 4 km square zone is fairly big enough for such strikes.

Next, submarines would not be the best vessel to employ to interdict alien intruders from the nearby islands.

A submarine is meant for covert or surreptitious warfare, that is, using cover and stealth to approach, trail and/or attack the enemy or slip commandos into enemy territory. The denial of Filipino entries into Malaysian waters doesn't require such an approach or tactic. In fact, apart from detecting and stopping boats carrying armed intruders from the Philippines southern islands, the RMN should actually show its flag openly (and threateningly) to deter the terrorist from entering Malaysian waters.

A combination of maritime air and surface ship patrols would be best.

RMN surface vessel

But the coast of Eastern Sabah is not exactly Penang's Batu Ferringhi beach. It's a fairly extensive stretch for surveillance and interdiction, and couple with the proximity of numerous Filipino southern islands and the RMN available resources, the task would be difficult though not impossible.

A possible solution in terms of efficient yet effective use of resources and cost would be to employ a number of electronic (including surface radar) and visual (TV camera and infra red) equipped drones to patrol the coast.

It's easy to sprout “Where was the Navy to prevent the invaders from coming in?” but please reflect on how the Allies in WWII could slip into Nazi-occupied Europe on numerous occasions despite the renown effectiveness and efficiency of the German military, already on war footing.


I worry that behind Dr Kua's 'silly' comments have been the disappointing urge of pro PKR people to just condemn everything and anything the Malaysian military have done in Lahad Datu, just for the purpose of vicariously getting at the UMNO-led government. This is not healthy for our nation and rakyat.

On a different but related point, I personally suspect that the air strikes have been very successful but the authorities are deliberately hiding the unpleasant truth of massive deaths of the intruders (from their families as well as supporters and sympathizers in Sabah, especially the latter) to prevent anger among them. These are the people who so happened to be the voters in GE-13 to realize for UMNO its claim of Sabah as its 'fixed deposit'.


It's the same reason Najib did not order immediate firm and appropriate actions against the Sulu interlopers in the first place.


  1. A battle is not fought at the front only. It is the obligation of the government to demonstrate to the Suluks as well as the international community that diplomacy has been employed before drastic action. This is to gain alliances and is very significant to win the war.

    Sending in the army and the police is to capture or kill those terrorist and not letting them kill our forces is a matter of facts. We do value our people lives, as such a hasty reaction is not wise, but a caution and care full approach is. We have to be watchful for mines and bobby traps as those terrorist aims are to cause maximum damage. Anyway times is with us and not them as they soon will be running out of food and hunger which will certainly stress them and force them to come out. That is when our soldiers do the shooting.

    I for one do not want our soldiers to be the heroes, but fight wisely.


    1. CPK,
      Well, you have mentioned the standard procedure in handling crisis. But the question that we should ask is if Najib/Hisham/Zahid have done it not. In the first place, Najib has refused to acknowledge the existence of the problem till 2 weeks later. Refusal to acknowledge the problem & decisive act on it is NAJIB's greatest failure
      SOMETHING KAYTEE HAS REFUSED TO CONDEMN.....Which make me feel suscipious of his agenda.....

      Don't defend those who are indefensible. Wrong means wrong

    2. my dear looes, haven't I written that Najib was trying not to offend his Filipino 'fixed deposit', which was why he had hoped the matter would disappear or be resolved peacefully. Of course he was not looking after national interest but UMNO's interests.

  2. Dr Kua is both right and wrong on a number of points - as you are both right and wrong.
    Malaysia does not possesss attack helicopters. There was (is?) a proposal to purchase Rooivalk attack copters, but there has been no movement on that. The Alouette's are Very lightly armed, unarmoured choppers , would not have been appropriate to use in the latest incident.

    I think the issue he raised on the Scorpenes was meant to be sarcasm, but it does invite the serious question whether Malaysia's multi-Billion ringgit Scorpene purchases were simply the wrong priority.

    The first serious challenge to Malaysia's territorial integrity in 40 years, and the multi-Billions spent on submarine weaponry was found to be wanting, nay useless.

    It may be, a far smaller expenditure on low-profile patrol boats and drones would have been a lot more effective.

    Don't compare the WWII situation today. The Germans in WWII only had primitive radar, only good for detecting large steel ships, searchlighs and human eyes, Mark 1.
    There is a plethora of sensor technology available today , 2013, which was not even dreamt of in 1944.

    The available circumstantial events indicate most of the rebels escaped unscathed, with the F/A-18 hitting vacant positions, though the insurgents have certainly been forced to scatter in the face of jet bombers and armoured vehicles.

    Yesterday, a well protected group of forensic investigators entering the area were shot at by the "devastated" (in the PDRM words) insurgents.

    For Malaysia's sake, I certainly hope the group was "devastated" but I'm quite doubtful right now...

    1. Correct! But then I believe Malaysia do have some attack helicopter gunships. Definitely not apache la

      Actually Kua was being sarcasm but then due to kaytee's ulterior agenda, Kua was seen as a buffoon.

      As for the WWII D-Day story, as usual kaytee as always miss out several important factors

      1) Diversion tactics have been used by creating an articial army division in Calais.....Guess who helm the force.....George Patton

      2) Germany was facing war on 2 fronts where majority of troops concentrated on the eastern front. The Russian was on hot pursuit from the east.

      3) Furthermore, Germany was hampered with destruction on her war machineries (Fighters, Tanks & etc). By then, Germany has gradually lost his major oilfield

      How can this "silly" kaytee compared with his beloved Najib who has the military might to handle 300 Spartans (Sorry Suluans) armed only with mortars & machine guns. It's mind boggling that these BN clowns started to "gahbrah" after 2 weeks

      One should wonder why Kaytee would not spend his "brain" in consdemning Najib/Zahid/Hisham. Why Kaytee never condemn Anifah? The foreign minister......what the fuck sort of diplomatic action......Guess what their response for the past 2 weeks


    2. Looes, I wasn't referring to the invasion but to commandos and agents slipping in and out of Europe.

      This is what I had written (please see above): "... please reflect on how the Allies in WWII could slip into Nazi-occupied Europe on numerous occasions despite the renown effectiveness and efficiency of the German military, already on war footing."

      Invasion (Normandy landings) did not "slip into Nazi-occupied Europe on numerous occasions ..."

    3. Yeah kaytee.....Just as the germans sunk many many british ships through their U boat campaign

      Gosh! Don't smoke me lei

  3. kua asked question, nothing more, dun read too much into it.

    1. but with silly statements on non-existent Apache heli-gunships

  4. I suspect many of the insurgents, with Blue ICs, and a poorly set up perimeter, because the Home Minister earlier considered them as "not militants , just ordinary human beings", will just melt into the Sabah population, to fight another day.

    Very few dead bodies found...what gives ?

    1. After the dust is settled, Malaysia will have to face guerrilla warfare, the Emergency all over again.

      Someone said the Scorpenes were meant to protect against another intrusion like the Portugese did in 1511, which is similar to the present one in Sabah.

  5. the toothless fella10:48 am, March 07, 2013

    Kaytee,it is alright for the gomen to pull punches against foreign armed insurgents.Because they are Muslim insurgents,who have many relatives who are being given blue I.C's and can vote in this coming GE.To pander for votes is okay.To let these insurgents violate our national security and sovereignty is okay.Why?Because they are Muslims.

    But when these Muslim insurgents ambushed and killed our security forces,had they thought that they were Muslims killing Muslims?Go figure,you little boy Hiham.

  6. Kt,

    'Plausible theory - 'On a different but related point, I personally suspect that the air strikes have been very successful but the authorities are deliberately hiding the unpleasant truth of massive deaths of the intruders (from their families as well as supporters and sympathizers in Sabah, especially the latter) to prevent anger among them. These are the people who so happened to be the voters in GE-13 to realize for UMNO its claim of Sabah as its 'fixed deposit'.

    But so far,all the infos coming out from the IGP, contradict yr postulation. Just like, 'Yesterday, a well protected group of forensic investigators entering the area were shot at by the "devastated" (in the PDRM words) insurgents.'

    Iff these invaders were devastated by the aerial bombing, it would be a humanly impossible for them to strike back at the forensic investigators from our side. Judging from the words used, the strike back was not rat tag in nature, but well planned, ie, wait till the investigators moved in then fired. Luckily there was 'no more' casualty

    One more thing, the morale of the soldiers on the field is of upmost important. This can be done most effectively through transparency. The soldiers know that the enemies r been decimated personally. But this news must also be made known to the public at home so that a true sense of their effort is prevailing among the soldiers & the M'sian public. By holding back this news as u suggested, smirked the good efforts of our men on the field. It done not justice to them! Even if those chickendish politikus gained some voting mileage.

    All said, yr postulation goes against good military field operation. But then, who r these politikus, anyway........

  7. the mean machine11:40 am, March 07, 2013

    Kaytee,we have to admit that we have ball-less betinas handling the Sabah crisis.If we had jantans in charge the only casualties will be on the invading terrorists side.What a let down by a bunch of circus clowns.

    1. Najib was trying not to offend his Filipino 'fixed deposit', which was why he had hoped the matter would disappear or be resolved peacefully. Of course he was not looking after national interest but UMNO's interests.

    2. Anybody who aspires to a position of leadership will be faced with situations where the available alternatives all have negative outcomes. It takes a strength of character and moral fibre to choose what is right.
      Najib is certainly shaping up to be a betina.
      Then again "I'm a lover, not a fighter" has always been his motto.

  8. bludy missy busybodies11:54 am, March 07, 2013

    When we have weak man acting as leaders we get weak results.So when weak men come face to face with real man,the end results are as follows.Very distrastrous things can happen.Like what has happen in Sabah.

  9. Isn't it amazing that these suluans are given grace period?

    It's like I come kaytee's house in Oz land....Shitted & squarted there & can leave with any warning whatsoever.....I do wonder if kaytee can stand that especially he can't forgive how shitty anwar ibrahim ever since he molested his sister's cat

    Now, then Najib wanna go to Lahad Datu, for opportunity.

    Have you watch clip before? It's fanstatic

  10. See how HAK articule eloquently on military matters especially touches on the weaknesses

    “The air strike was not meant to kill but to neutralise the target so that we can come in without any casualties."
    - Malaysia's BTN-ised armed forces chief.

    The F/A-18 dropped laser-guided bombs on empty huts, just tell the truth-lah...

    If this was the USAF or RAF or RAAF, the man would probably not have made it higher than Corporal.

    No disrepect to the hardworking Corporals of the world.

  12. I find those who want to bomb and kill the suluk intruders immediately as shortsighted. The issue needs more than military undertaking. We need Philippines to assist. By killing at the word go, it is doubtful we can get the support of the Philippines as we obtain now. We had time to play the leverage game.

    1. Ellese,
      Wow! You are now part of Mooh-mooh-yiddin team under the master overlord of kerala man Madhater.....Good, carry on.....

    2. Yeah, after so many deadlines and kid glove treatment, Malaysia never expected the Muslim intruders to behead and gouge out eyes. SO now you are seeing the expected reaction from our government.

    3. You really this clown really open eyes

  13. KT ...U r just like RPK, U guys talk like Demi G*Ds(U have labeled many as such but not urselves) U guys know all the facts....RPK a malay who thinks he is a mat salleh, n U a Ahpiau who thinks U are God's gift to mankind. No offence, my 2 1/2 cts worth.

  14. First time Voter9:50 am, March 09, 2013

    Having followed your blog, I was naturally very suspicious of Anwar Ibrahim's motives and role behind the scenes in the Sabah incursions.

    Luckily Internet friends have helped me open my eyes and realised the Sabah incursion isn't just an "Anwar Ibrahim conspiracy."

    Sorry to say, I'm beginning to realise , due to your single-minded pursuit of Anwar, your blog is overall not a reliable and balanced source of information and opinions.

    1. His "single-minded pursuit of Anwar" have been likened, in past comments, to that of Captain Ahab of Moby Dick.

    2. maybe I have Japanese blood and like to hunt whales, wakakaka.

    3. Nah! It has something to do with the cat his sister possess nong nong time ago

  15. If the Sabah conflict develops into a full-scale insurgency, I'm afraid it will be a conflict that the BTN-ised Malaysian Armed Forces are mentally unfit to fight, a Malay-Muslim guerrila war.

    Strictly speaking, Suluks are not Malays, the Tausug dialect being unintelligible to a Bahasa Malaysia speaker. However, in the "Constitutional Malay" definition beloved of Dr. Mahathir, they are considered Malays.

    The tendency to go soft on "Orang Kita" is deeply ingrained in both Malay and Muslim psychology. The Malay army (that's what it effectively is today) will be fighting the Suluks with half a heart, and get likely get itself killed.

    During the Emergency, it was relatively easy to arouse determination to destroy the Chinese-Communist guerillas - there has often been an undercurrent of racism in the Malay army's ethos.
    Defending Bangsa dan Agama , and all, especially the 100% pure Malay units like Askar Melayu Diraja.
    The Royal Malay Regiment originally constituted was led by British officers, with Malay lower ranks. It was created to be an elite force, like the Khyber Rifles in British India.
    Today it is 100% Malay officers and 100% Malay lower ranks. Go figure out its mental make up these days.

    My side plea, as a former soldier and officer, is we really need more non-Malays in Malaysia's armed forces to make it more representative of Malaysia's populstion, but I guess its a chicken-and-egg situation.

    1. There were/are two army infantry regiments, RMD and Rangers. The former is strictly Melayu only (except sometimes for the doctor or dentist, wakakaka).

      But sadly in view of its admirable history, sacrifices in the defence of Malaysia and tradition, even the latter has since been transformed into almost 100% Melayu. In the final analysis the tragic conclusion has to be that the UMNO-led government doesn't trust the non-Malays, despite the recorded feats and sacrifices of non-Malay Rangers, other armed forces' units and the Police - please see my previous post

    2. THe scenario after this will be reminiscent of the Emergency days, except that the 'enemy' would be consider 'brethren'. How to deal with the potential 5th column within Sabah - new villages with fenced-up areas?

    3. Very simple......Reintroduce National Service.....

      Make sure that melayus only constitute less than 50% of NS

      Seek help from Singapore on how to implement

    4. unlikely to seek help from that lil' red dot wakakaka - would be a loss of face lah. But non-Chinese Korea or non-Chinese Thailand which have lots of NS experience may help.

  16. Why is Malaysia refusing the Sultan of Sulu's ceasefire ?
    The sight of the Malaysian Army pounding their brethens, who are no longer fighting back, to bits will inflame the tens of thousands Suluks in Sabah further.

    Malaysia still has a chance to avoid a full-scale Tausug may soon be too late.

    1. foreign criminals who come into our country illegally and then kill 8 of our policemen and mutilate them must be brought to justice. You are suggesting that we make peace with such savage criminal murderers.

      "Pounding their brethren"? Did those 'brethren' consider the 8 Malaysian policemen their brethren when they killed and MUTILATE them by gouging out their eyes, disfiguring their corpses and decapitating them?

    2. Agreed, kaytee

      What's next? Should try what Golda Meir has sanctioned this? This is a difference between me & you. I am quite supportive of the Isrealis.....Hahahaha

    3. I believe the infiltrators are now in an awkward position and will be eliminated or caught in a matter of time - hence we see the so-called sultan screaming for ceasefire and UN intervention - what UN intervention when the Malaysia authority has more than demonstrated its (too) overly soft treatment of those criminals. Not as if we have a Kosovo or Syrian situation.

      Just a matter of time to bring those criminals to justice, one way or other. No need for the post Munich Olympics type of vengeance which was/is unique to teh Israelis who believe in following the murderous examples listed in the OT

    4. I think has made one strategic error and about to make another one.
      The first one was the almost criminally negligent nonchalance reacting to the original incursion, as if the Suluks were just tourist who had entered without without valid visas.
      The video of Keris-Hisham's press conference is all over the internet, so he can't hope for "Malaysians Mudah Lupa" or "I was misquoted".

      Having had the intrusion turn into deadly violence, and tactically defeated the intruders, it is now making the mistake going for the Overkill.
      A bit of magnanimity in a moment of victory can go a long way towards a sustainable peace.

      Don't make the mistake of underestimating the potential of the intrusion becoming a catalyst for a full-scale Suluk insurgency.
      There are some 800,000 BangsaMoros in Sabah, and if even 1% of them decide that it is time to take up arms to throw out the occupying power - Malaysia, it will become almost impossible for Malaysia to hang on to Sabah.

  17. In 2009, the home minister said that "terrorist Noordin Md Top ... could have been rehabilitated". Maybe he went to Sabah to attempt something like this with the group of intruders, and got a hard lesson on what 'brethrens' could do to our men-in-blue ...

    And Dr M finally got to see the consequences of his handiwork in allowing the 'brethrens' instant citizenship on the basis they have "been there for over 20 to 30 years...speak Malay...have the right to be citizens..." As usual don't expect him to take responsibility, and see how he will wrangle out of this...

    1. in my earlier post, see my comment-caption under a photo of Hisham - wakakaka


    Houses used as hideouts by Suluk intruders to be demolished.

    This is classic Israel-style collective punishment. Israel has rightly been condemned for carrying out such punitive actions in the Occupied Territories.

    1. Israel did that in Palestinian territory; Malaysia does it in its won territory as t used to during the Emergenecy, moving rural Chinese into "new villages" or "fenced up hamlets" to prevent contacts and supply of food and medical supplies for the terrorists by the villagers.


    Looks like Malaysian soldiers are a very superstitious lot...

  20. hi nice talking...why don't you all go to ground zero and do the fighting yourselves...we sabahans don't think that way...they are suluks not like our kids playing with toy guns...its their games ever since they knew how to walk...