Sunday, November 17, 2013

Can sing but cannot read 'Allah' word in Selangor

Apparently, according to Mohd Tamyes Abdul Wahid, the Selangor Mufti, if you're a non-Muslim you can still sing the word 'Allah' contained in the Selangor State anthem, even though HRH Sultan Selangor, via a fatwa, has just warned non-Muslims against using the word 'Allah'.

AAAAAAaaaaaaaLLLLLLlllllllll ...........

HRH is of course the Head of Islam in Selangor and he can fatwa on all issues on Islam in the state as much as he likes. But his most recent fatwa prohibiting non-Muslims from using the 'Allah' word has, with all respect to HRH (ampun tuanku), unfortunately further muddied the murky waters spilled out by the Appeals Court on issue. 

I don't propose to start from the very beginning of the 'Allah' word issue as I've blogged amply on it but I take this opportunity to reiterate my personal stand, that as a non-Muslim, repeat, as a non-Muslim I do NOT support the Catholic Church on its obdurate insistence to use the 'Allah' word as the Malay language reference to the Christian god in its Bahasa section of its weekly newsletter, The Herald.

If you want to know why I have adopted this stand (an unusual one for a non-Muslim Chinese - no, I'm not nor related to Ridhuan Tee Abdullah, wakakaka), please read my earlier posts:

(a) Allah, Elohim or Yahweh? on 12 Jan 2010

(b) Catholic Herald & the 3rd Pandora Box on 01 Apr 2010

(c) Now, who are the Arab wannabes? on 29 Dec 2012

(d) The Church & Allah posted on 01 Jan 2013

(e) The elephant in the room posted on 19 Oct 2013

Just prior to HRH's fatwa on non-Muslim use of the 'Allah' word, the situation or imbroglio has been best summed up by Dr Ronnie Ooi of Aliran who stated that Malays could interpret the Appeals Court's ruling as:

  • That the Court of Appeal decision is completely wrong and the use of the word Allah should be unrestricted. This is certainly the view of the MP for Sepang and Pas central committee member Mohamed Hanipa Maidin, expressed in a very well written article for Malaysiakini, and of Professor Abdul Aziz Bari.
  • That the decision applies to The Herald only and not to East Malaysia. This appears to be the position of Muslim Lawyers’ Association of Malaysia president Zainul Rijal Abu Bakar, Ikatan Muslimin Malaysia (Isma) deputy president Aminuddin Yahaya and the Malaysian government.
  • That the decision implies a blanket ban on the use of the word Allah by all non-Muslims including in East Malaysia and presumably in the Sikh holy books as well. This appears to be the view of the lawyer for The Herald and is demanded by Perkasa. It seems to be implicit in what Pas syura council deputy chief Haron Din wants when he says the “holy name is exclusively for Muslims only”

Note the 3rd dot-point in which the right wing elements, comprising The (Catholic) Herald, Perkasa and PAS Syura Council are 'together with one heart' in pushing the envelope kau kau - bloody ornithological species of identical plumage - semua nak cari pasal saja, pordah!

Father Lawrence Andrew, editor The Herald
who told us that Elohim is a foreign word for God, while Allah is a local (Malay) word

wakakaka

But forget about those Huns and let's return to HRH's fatwa.

Two legal facts are undeniable, namely: (1) HRH is the Head of Islam and thus Islamic Affairs in Selangor, where he can issue fatwa on Islamic issues and make rulings on Islamic matters, and (2) there is a law (state or/and federal legislation) prohibiting non-Muslims preaching and converting any Muslims in Malaysia.

I want to discuss one confusing point which lies outside the above two legal situations. Initially I had thought the best example would be to use the Sikh religion which has the word 'Allah' in its Guru Granth Sahib, the Holy Book of Sikhism, ...

Guru Granth Sahib

see if you can spot the 'Allah' word which appears 12 times in it

... BUT I decided not to because the Book is in the Punjabi language, and as I have been repetitively saying, the Muslim government authority in Malaysia doesn't give a f**k about any language (eg. Punjabi, Chinese, Iban, Swahili) using the 'Allah' word other than Malay (Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia) and in a media form just all too easily circulated, to wit, The Catholic Herald.

But of course, HRH's recent fatwa as the Head of Islam in Selangor has now infringed on the Sikhs' rights to freely practice their Sikh religion in Selangor, and may I mohon ampun tuanku again, has now weakened the government's position and credibility via-a-vis its insistence that the Appeals Court's ruling only applies to The (Catholic) Herald. It has been said HRH had received very bad advice on the fatwa.


Now, what if very religious (wakakaka) kaytee, while in the state of Selangor, uses the word Allah in his Christian wakakaka or Taoist or Buddhist or Shinto or Hindu prayers in English or Chinese or Pali or Japanese or Tamil (my late dad spoke Tamil fluently and taught me a few words, while I acquired a few additional but very naughty and sexy ones as well, wakakaka)?

Just what legal authority does the Selangor Head of Islam have over a Christian, Taoist, Buddhist or Shinto or Hindu (etc) who prays in English or Chinese or Pali or Japanese or Tamil/Hindi/Malayalam/Telugu in the state of Selangor?

HRH as the Sultan of Selangor is only a constitutional monarch, and outside of the religion of Islam and Islamic issues, he has no legal authority over a non-Muslim [though we suspect he has lots of extralegal powers and persuasion).

Of course we non-Muslim Malaysians respect him, definitely much more than UMNO people as I have shown in Insulting the Rulers, UMNO-style, wakakaka, but nonetheless we beg to ask (ampun tuanku):

... just under what constitutional or legal grounds will a non-Muslim Christian, Taoist, Buddhist, Shinto or Hindu (etc) in the state of Selangor who prays in English or Chinese or Pali or Japanese or Tamil/Hindi/Malayalam/Telugu and uses the word 'Allah' in his prayers, be charged with?

51 comments:

  1. Laying aside the Selangor situation. How about a statement that goes like this: "Dalam Firman Tuhan, Ia (Tuhan) bersabda bahawa nabi-nabi di ilahi oleh wahyu & rahmat untuk membawa orang-orang berdosa bertobat dan mencari iman supaya mendapati ilham akhirat yang akan datang".

    Firman, sabda, nabi2, ilahi, wahyu, rahmat, iman, ilham and maybe bertobat & akhirat yang certainly no-no's. Some of these terms (almost 5-6) have been restricted from usage besides the A word.

    However, this sentence will be used every other day not in Indonesia but in Malaysia. So any "inspirasi"? Wakakakaka

    ReplyDelete
  2. HRH's actual views on the Allah matter, whatever it is, are irrelevant. Not in the constutional sense of having to take advice from the Government of the day , which is Pakatan Rakyat in the state..

    He is under UMNO control, because UMNO has him by the D*ck.

    Add to that a weak PR Menteri Besar who is unable/unwilling to lay the law straight to HRH i.e. HRH is REQUIRED by the constitution to speak in accordance with the advice of the Elected State Government.

    HRH is in reality unfit to make any pronouncements on religious and moral matters.
    Leadership and authority has to be set by example, I will leave it at that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree with with your views on HRH's responsibilities & authority regarding secular policies and public governance in the state but not regarding Islamic matters. Constitutionally, HRH is the Head of Islam in the state and therefore has responsibilities and authority on Islamic issues. The MB and state Majlis agama are only there to advise him. Regardless of whether he is pro UMNO or pro PR he can issue fatwas and policies on Islamic matters, thus whether the MB is weak or not is irrelevant.

      But as a constitutional monarch he cannot issue state laws or policies on secular matters, which by constitution is the sole-legal authority of the State Exco, acting on behalf of the people of Selangor. In this regard, your comment about the weak PR MB would be relevant.

      Delete
    2. State Islamic laws have no power over the practice of religion among non-Muslims. The Shariah court has no power to indict any non-Muslim (much to the chagrin of those who want to pursue action against non-Muslims who commit khalwat with a Muslim).
      The laws forbidding so-called propagation of non-Muslim religions among Muslims are actually civil laws. The action against the Herald, for example, was made under the Printing Press and Publications Act, through the Home Ministry.
      So any action Selangor would take against a non-Muslim over the Allah issue would have to be in Civil courts. It is a secular matter.

      Delete
  3. KT,

    Let's talk a little bit more about this 'illogical'royal & islamic decree by an 'instant-mee' jantan figurehead on kalimah Allah.

    Yr passionate & emotional (RPK's definitive word on this subject, wakakaka) conjecture on yr non-support of the Allah usage by the Malay-speaking Christians is just that - emotional. Though u might argue otherwise!

    Now on the royal decree, allow me to quote a real life example.

    Queen Elisabeth II is the constitutional monarch of Great Britain. She is also the annoted figurehead of the Church of England.

    So, in a sense she plays the same role as that jantan sultan of Selangor. In fact, her role reflects the same position of all the 9 sultans of Malaya plus The Agong.

    The question then is would her issuing a royal decree to the same magnitude as that of the current Selangor sultan? Yes, this sultan could have been conned. But then why is he so easily tricked when QEII rarely (in fact NONE, to my light research on this royal blunders) made such blunders?

    Is he been surronded by nincompoops or paid 'Brutus' working for the 'others'? Or perhaps he is indeed a willing & interested party.

    To remain as a head (figuratively speaking), one MUST be impartial. More so, when two distinct functions r involved - one for the whole of the country, while the other involves only a section (even it's the majority) of the populace.

    QEII has done exceptionally well to perform her REQUIRED role with perfect distinction throughout her reign. Can we say the same with the Malaya sultans? Perhaps, among them sultans, most of them know their role well, with the exception of an occasional rogue player.

    Is this the reason why the rest of the sultans r so silent on this kalimah Allah issue, while this Selangor sultan suddenly so vocal - to the extend of ignoring a carefully balancing act as the constitutional head of the state? Is he been played out through ball sqeezing or is he a blur-sotong (as reflected in that consistently used argument of confusing the ummat Islam), or is he a willing player? That's the 6million $$$ question, lies within this unenforceble royal decree!

    One thing for sure, the Selangor sultan should take a lesson from her Majesty's elegantly balancing act of governing. If not, then perhaps he SHOULD act just like his other brother sultans - remain their royal silence, to maintain a sample of orderly relevancy in this age.

    ReplyDelete
  4. KT,

    What the Selangor sultan has been issued is a royal decree.

    It's different from a fatwa!

    In the years gone by, disobeying a royal decree carried a death sentence. Nowaday, it doesnt worth its weight in spoken voice, with the exception among the feudalistic blur-sotong.

    Moreover, fatwa is also not legally binding - it depends on who is the issurer & the subject involved.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Let me state at the outset that I am a non believer. AT least at the moment. However I am sure that THAT GOD would be very confused by now and looking to register HIM/HER self in Tg Rambutan or Bahagia in Johor in complete exasperation. Can this be mad a priority registration as god needs to have a clear view of things a la Malaysia

    ReplyDelete
  6. |

    \


    |

    Ktemoc, Sir
    |


    You had been a General in the army

    and I had served over 20 years as a

    senior professional in the Gomen.

    However shitty people may think of

    the service in the Gomen, there are thousands

    of hardworking people of integrity

    in the service. When one steps out

    of the civil service world, one tend to realise

    that Malaysia is a land where a culture of

    of cheating and dishonesty is rampant.


    I tell this story again and again. When

    a Melayu walks into a chinaman shop ,

    he is made to pay as much as 20 percent

    over and above what a chinese patron

    need to pay. Ask any malay about this and her

    respond would be- ' biasalah, china celaka..'

    This has been going on as long as I can

    remember. And note I am saying this though

    my late mother [was a daughter of a chinaman,

    literally 'coz he came from china]. I

    do not hate the catholics . When grandfather died

    he was interred at the local christian cemetry-

    maybe one of my aunts had during that time

    become a staunch evangelical catholic.

    |





    Gomen servants follow the laws of the country

    religously to the letter. When you drive outside

    you noticed the chingkies and the kolings don't

    bother with the traffic laws. They literally

    view them merely as suggestions! Drive along

    Jalan Ipoh [the stretch from Dynasty Hotel

    upto the turning towards the Sentul Station,

    chingkies and kolings parked on either side of the

    road though the roads are double-lined.
    |

    Does a typical chingkie or a koling follow the

    gomen laws at all?

    Look the 'great bar council' with 'bersih' leaders

    like Ambiga and 'talk-a-lot-mat-pantat- Zaid' . They did

    not feel uncomfortable that while they screw the

    Gomen in one breath , they stand among an unsavoury

    member like Pundek-Lingam in the Bar!


    OK. On this issue of Kalimah Allah , Mustapa -Pakiam

    lied with a straight face ['coz he is Indian, one

    cannot detect the blush] that the catholic has one

    God as an article of faith. Fancy that. Now what

    does the catholic dictat says on the issue of One God,

    which Allah is and will always be: Mustapa-Pakiam

    would fall into the big hellfire pit bekoz he

    has declared his faith similar to that of the Unitarian

    Christians! That is a heresy! I suspect brader

    Azmin -Andrew too of the Christian Federation

    would fall under the same heresy trap!


    Ok , That would not be a problem for brader Mustapa-Pakiam

    'coz he can seek forgiveness from the Sunday Mass and

    probably got away with few thousand 'Hail Marys'....


    All this brouhaha is nothing but a storm in a teacup..


    Just ask a chingkie or a koling: Since when they obey the

    country's law to the letter?

    Answer: Never!
    |

    And when a koling got shot during a heist, that is when he

    knows the effect of breaking the law!



    |
    khong khek khuat

    |

    |






    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. well, I have to concede you're amazing, in that while you commented on the post issue, on religion and the use of the 'Allah' word, you were also able to condemn the Chinese for their alleged business discrimination (I too have a story on this one, just wait, okay?) and together with the Indians, their propensity to break traffic laws, as well as excoriate a few socio-political personalities, wakakaka.

      On your "Ask any malay about this and her respond would be- ' biasalah, china celaka'" the story I've heard was about a Chinese car salesman who successfully sold one of those original Volkswagen (thus an old story) to a kampung Malay. After handing over the keys to the new owner the Chinese salesman drove off, and that's when the new owner opened the car's bonnet and made this remark to his kampung friend standing by his side "Celaka China tu, jual aku kereta tanpa injin, Raja tipu, Nasib baik ada spare di belakang", where the moral of the story is there's a lot of unfounded prejudice between the Malays and Chinese, where in stereotype fashion one believes the other is a nasty cheat, while the other believes the opposite is stupid. Both prejudices are of of course totally untrue but deliberately nurtured (at least the one about celaka Cina pandai tipu, wakakaka) by UMNO-ites like you, wakakaka.

      Delete
    2. CB,

      After so many years in the govt sector, u have definitely master the art of stereotyping M'sians.

      In fact u SHOULD venture further to say ALL M'sians r regular law breakers. Besides the eamples u gave about the Chingkie & Koling, u should also mentioned about the rampantly & choatic parkings around the mosques, especially during Friday noon. & who r those inconsiderates? Pendatang from Mars? wakakaka. Ouch....

      One other thing, if u r a frequent travellers along the NS highway, u would notice that non-Melayu always been charged more for the same portion of nasi lemak or mee goreng by the operators. Either these operators r Chingkie, whom they r not or they must have been VERY well-trained by thr Chingkie!

      BTW, can I pigeon-hole u as the same with tok ib? Not only as same spices but also mentality?

      On 2nd thought, perhaps not. Tok ib at least has the gut to openly play racist, while u r a closet race-hater. On that score, u rank top!

      Delete
    3. Oi orang yang kongkek terlalu kuat ( sebab itu lah nama you macam sial ini lah ! )....what the bloody FCUK you mean by "Gomen servants follow the laws of the country religously to the letter" ?

      Have you not heard or seen the thousands of little napoleon gomen servants who persistently and blatantly fouting the laws? Every year without fail, the AG coming out with reports about corruption and daylight robbery to the tune of RM20 billion (EVERY fucking Year ! )...what happened to their oath before taking office to be clean, efficient etc etc ?

      Have you not heard or seen the hordes of school heads, these very 'educated' public/gomen servants, who Without Fail Every fucking Year, bully the poor little students of minority races...where is their oath to educate every child equally fairly and without bias ?

      Have you not heard or seen the thousands of gomen servants who lepak during office hours, who take tea breaks every hour of the day, who willy nilly close their counters ( leaving ONLY one counter open, even with queues winding out of the door !)...all busy with their " bizness kecik kat opfis"...selling tupperware ke, selling amway ke, selling avon ke, or just simply sembang sembang or doing knitting. What happened to their oath before taking office ?

      Follow laws religiously to the letter ? WTF !! Wa ka ka ka. Lebih baik you balik to your bilik and do what your name suggest lah....mr kong kek kuat2....don't talk KOK here lah.

      Delete
  7. My God's name is Kwan Yin, Tua Pek Kong, Na tuk Kong, Ganesh, Jesus etc....... Not my problem. Allah is not one of my God's name. It belongs to the Arabs only and their Arabic names or maybe belongs to the Malays now.

    Now it's making us non-Malays (non-East Malaysians Christians or Malay speaking Christians) confused. Are Malays/Moslems confused also now?

    In the end it is Money which is God and rules the universe.

    ReplyDelete
  8. So just write "Alxxx" and utter "ar...." for the forbidden word ?

    ReplyDelete
  9. Think this's an issue about logics ?
    Legality ?
    Waste effort and time arguing.
    Convince nobody.
    The whole thing is no other than the big 'eats' the small !

    ReplyDelete
  10. KT,
    Looks like you will be writing more articles on this Allah issue for many years to come. The Federal Court would probably drag the case for another few years like what the Appeals Court. has done. Even if the Federal Court were to dispose of the case in a jiffy, we still have the SIB and Jill Ireland cases coming up and the East Malaysian Christians are not likely to give up their right to the word which has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have been using, not only before the formation of Malaysia but for generations.

    While the Christians respect your right or anybody else's right to suggest "suitable" replacement words, we must also respect the Christians' right to decide for themselves whether to change or retain the use of the word for whatever reasons. They have in fact come up with many statements on the usage of the word. Anyone can refer to this website http://www.krisispraxis.com/archives/2013/01/collated-resources-christians-from-pre-islam-arab-christians-to-bumiputera-christians-have-the-right-to-use-allah/ for the articles. The Indonesian Bible society has also written their explanation at http://www.alkitab.or.id/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=100&Itemid=2 .

    We have had quite a few exchanges on this topic here and at The Nutgraph. My stand still holds in that unless the government drops this case which is untenable and indefensible, absurd situations like this will continue to haunt us in the days ahead. Happy writing and for me, happy reading. Cheers. Adam.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Its not about Islam, not really, because various Muslim countries have no problems with non-Muslim Christians referring to Allah.

    The Shafii school of Islam ? No such prohibition.

    Its very much a Ketuanan Melayu thingy.
    Stop hiding behind Islam.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's beyond 'ketuanan' which has been why I didn't support the Herald in wanting to use that word in its Malay section. Both sides have been wrong but in MY PERSONAL assessment the Herald has been suspiciously too insistent

      Delete
    2. KT,

      Yr PERSONAL assessment the Herald has been suspiciously too insistent is based TOTALLY on yr PERSONAL feeling about the POSSIBLE proselytisation of Muslims in M'sia.

      Yes?

      Despite all yr PERSONAL arguments that u have been put forward, the fact remains the same - possible suspicion!

      Bcoz of that, u throw out one pertinent FACT that the existing Malay-speaking Christians have been using Allah to refer to their Almighty since eons ago. That's long before this kalimah Allah issue was/is blown up for political mileage. These Malay-speaking Christians r NOT yr everyday new converts. Dont they have their FUNDAMENTAL constitutional right in their OWN religious matter? Since that A-word has been used by them long before u & I were born, DO u honestly want them to change to Erohim or whatever words that can please the ultra blur-sotongs?

      So, to stop them from using Allah, if it's not 'ketuanan' then WHAT it's? Do tell & no grandmother story, please!

      Herald is their internal circulated newspaper. That doesnt mean outsiders cant read them. Again this is boiled down to choice.

      U want to read, read lah! If u want to use them as fish wrap, do so lah! What's that confusion thingy, as if the user is a moronic lemming!

      & this is the intrinsic argument (though u NEVER said so), that I found a person of yr caliber cant master to get off yr thought.

      Delete
    3. I safely assume that your "existing Malay-speaking Christians have been using Allah to refer to their Almighty since eons ago" are East Malaysians. The government has stated clearly there's no restriction on them or even West Malaysians from continuing to do so, except The Herald is prohibited from using the Allah-word in its Malay section of the weekly newsletter.

      In my first posting on issue "Allah, Elohim or Yahweh?" - http://ktemoc.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/allah-elohim-or-yahweh.html - I had stated quite clearly "Given the experts’ etymological and historical clarifications on the ‘Allah’ word, I am in no doubt the editor of the Catholic Herald, Father Lawrence Andrew, is on strong legal grounds to use it ..."

      "... but I have always believed that religion is about faith and morality and not legality or for that matter, political approval. Thus I find it unfortunate that the Catholic Herald had taken the issue to the courts. Surely on a matter of religious faith and knowledge, there are numerous other names of God it could have use beside ‘Allah’."

      "So why has Father Lawrence Andrew insisted on doing so?"

      Yes, why? You have your personal answer, I have mine, wakakaka

      Delete
    4. Basically u r running a dog-bite-tail argument!

      'The existing Malay-speaking Christians have been using Allah to refer to their Almighty since eons ago" are East Malaysians. Yes.

      But, there r also a large number of Penisular M'sia Natives who r of Christian faith! Unless u choose NOT to know! So, in this case change their praise of Allah to praise of Lord during their congregation, yes?

      Even with matter of faith, the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT of personal choice is, for lack of a better word, choice. Who the hell r u, ib ali or Father Lawrence Andrew, to change their longheld tradition?

      Unless, of course, when in might is right situation. Then r u not into ketuanan again?

      Tell that to them P M'sia natives, if u chance to come back from Oz & visit them for fact findings.

      'Surely on a matter of religious faith and knowledge, there are numerous other names of God it could have use beside ‘Allah’.' Perhaps u should suggest KT, wakakaka...

      BTW, do u honestly deep in yr heart, think that the Appellate court's decision is ONLY as 'clearly there's no restriction on them or even West Malaysians from continuing to do so, except The Herald is prohibited from using the Allah-word in its Malay section of the weekly newsletter.'

      If it's a YES, then I would believe u were born yesterday. That's the day before TODAY!

      If it's a NO, then KT is lying through his teeth, just to TRY winning an argument.

      One more thing, did u ever think that the govt of the day has the right to overturn, &/or re-interpret the finding of the Judiciary?

      Based on yr based argument, u seem to think so. If that's the case, then KT, u should forget about writing ANYTHING on politics.

      U should stick to KTemoc Kongsamkok!!!!!

      Delete
    5. "'The existing Malay-speaking Christians have been using Allah to refer to their Almighty since eons ago"

      Since it started with the Catholic Church, may I paraphrase that as:

      "'The existing Malay-speaking Catholics have been using **Latin** in their mass since eons ago".

      Are they today?

      Delete
    6. What's yr point?

      Do enlighten my ignorance in this phrase of yrs.

      R u now trying to confuse the temporal issue of beginning?

      Not the universe, of course, but the beginning of the usage of Allah in Malay-speaking Christians. (that means P & E M'sian natives, intant-mee Indonesian/Philippine pseudo muslim M'sians & any others).

      I'm sure a man of yr learning should be able to distinguish that proverbial starting time in the Kalimak Allah etymology of their faith.

      Blame the Dutch/Portuguese missionary for not sticking to Latin when these natives r been proselytized in the 1600s! Yes?

      Delete
    7. My point is, to help you, highlighting the fact that when it suits the Catholic Church it could change as it did in allowing mass to be conducted in the local language and not just Latin as it once used to be.

      Thus, if once the Dutch missionaries had used 'Allah' to refer to the Christian god, perhaps to proselytize the native Muslims, perhaps not, the Catholic Church can change (a sit did for the conduct of its mass) that reference to god, from Allah to Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc etc etc, to a far more Judeo-Christian pedigree.

      Obviously it doesn't want to. That's my point!

      Delete
    8. Now I see it!!!!!!

      Based on yr 'entangled' logic - whether in England, China, Germany, South America, Swahili or Timbuktu, as long as they r related to the that branch of Abrahamic faith (anything to do with Judeo-Christian etc) when it suits the Church it could change as it did in allowing mass to be conducted in the local language and not just Latin as it once used to be.

      So, what about the M'sian context? Cant the Christian M'sians uses whatever languages that suit them? Aint they do that NOW? Anything wrong, besides those moronic ketuanan kaki?

      'Thus, if once the Dutch missionaries had used 'Allah' to refer to the Christian god, perhaps to proselytize the native Muslims, perhaps not, the Catholic Church can change (a sit did for the conduct of its mass) that reference to god, from Allah to Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai, etc etc etc, to a far more Judeo-Christian pedigree.'

      Must give this to u - man, u r really something!

      That episode of proselytisation using Allah (maybe????) happened in 1600+ in the year of the Lord. KT! So now u want to play god to wind back a tradition that has been carved (even the origin of its cause could be of mal-intention) in accepted mind for sooooo long & change it.

      Just to suit the ketuanan kaki I guess?

      Have u been to the land of the Inca? Using yr logic, KT wants all the current Inca descendents to revert back to their ancestor way. or at least speak Inca!

      Aint u just like that someone mentioned about pushing a jelly ball up-hill with a sharp stick? Or more simply - reinventing the Allah wheel, so that the ketuanan kaki can used it to made bullock-cart, wakakaka.

      Perhaps, u dont understand temporal event! Hello, things happened in the past CANT be un-done. This is especially so with religious matter.

      Remember that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Delete
    9. as mentioned, East Malaysians are NOT affected so if they want to still use the 'Allah' word as was taught to them by 16th Century Dutch missionaries, they still can. The court's prohibition under the PPPA is about The Herald and only The Herald.

      Unlike the claimed teaching by 16th Century Dutch missionaries to use the Allah word, The [Catholic] Herald did not originate in 16th Century, so why is the church insisting on using the Allah word in that weekly newsletter . when it can use other words like Elohim, Yahweh etc. Tell em, why is the motive of the Catholic Church? It is also disingenuous to postulate that unless The Herald is allowed to use the word, the whole of Christiandom in East Malaysia or whole of Malaysia will collapse.

      Delete
    10. Secondly, on your last remark re "things happened in the past CANT be un-done", that's nonsense as proven in the case of Latin-conducted Mass where today Mass may be conducted in the local language. Once RCs have to refrain from eating meat on Friday, but that's no longer the case today. And as for the celibacy of RC priests, do you know that once RC priests were allowed to marry, until the RC realized that the church would inherit the property of its priests if they weren't allowed to marry and thus have no family or heir. Now, the Pope is considering reversing the celibacy policy. Lastly, in the 16th Century, Giordano Bruno, an astronomer and peer of Galileo was burnt at the stake by the Church because he dared to suggest that space was boundless and that the sun was and its planets were but one of any number of similar systems.

      So? "... things happened in the past CANT be un-done"? Still want to burn, say, kaytee at the stake? wakakaka

      Delete
    11. DROP IT LA KAYTEE.......BEFORE YOUR HEAD KENNA CHOPPED.......EVEN THAT PINKY CIBAI LIP LAJIB IS FRIGHTEN OVER THIS ALLAH ISSUE......TAIB MAHMUD, A MUSLIM NEED TO COME OUT TO DEFEND EAST MALAYSIANS USING ALLAH

      STOP DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE

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    12. What a load of twisted crap!

      1st, u have not answer my previous qestion of whether the finding of the appellate court is confined only to The Herald.

      Be very careful -this is a case law & if u dont know then u better keep yr elegant silence like that pink-lip. Dont keep using it to justify yr screen weaving process to hide the Truth Intention.

      Yes, The Herald is not founded in the 1600+, but it's a newspaper means for its intended readers. Many of its intended readers r Malay-speaking Christians, who have a long tradition of addressing their Lord as Allah in their native tongue. Like it or not & how this comes about is of no consequences to current issue. Allah is still THE WORD they r most familiar with, when refering to their God.

      The Herald would be doing a lousy job to spread the gospel to these Malay-speaking Christians if it suddenly introduces KT as the new word for their God. This would be the ultimate insult as KT has never ever appears in their tradition/way of lives as a name for their God.

      BTW, confusion would not be the case here. As KT (Elohim, YHWH) is totally alient to them in their language of god. These words just draw a blank in their mind & thus their communion with their God is broken.

      Those ketuanan kaki would love for this to occur as they have been trying so hard to convince their Muslim kindred that 'trinitization' of Allah could cause Islamic confusion! Unfortunately, for a true Muslim with strong conviction, this usage of the Allah word by other religion causes NO confusion - for his faith is strong.

      So, it's not for the fear of the fallen of the Christiandom that The Herald insist of using the word Allah for its Malay publication. It's for the benefit of those Malay-speaking Christians to have a true communion with their Lord. Period.

      Of course, KT would not buy the other idea of their foundamental right, guarantee by the FC. Wakaka...

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    13. KT,

      On the temporal issue of past event cant be undone, again u r trying to smoke-screen the topic.

      The examples u gave r only procedural issues. Since they r man-made, thus they CAN be changed with time & new insights about procedural understanding. & this has happened in many 'matured' religions.

      On the fight between science & dogma, u r using a very bad argument. Science is FACT-based, whereas religious dogma is FAITH-based. They r just two tagential isuues that COULD never meet.

      Using yr last argument about thing happened in the padt CAN be undone, I'm afraid u have to eat yr humble pie. If u still insist then perhaps I can strongly suggest that u undone, by whatever means, what that water-walking mamak had done to M'sia in his 22-years of one-man rule.

      If u can do that, I would rest my case & try my personal best to entice all my Malay-speaking Christians to drop the Allah word & use other title (maybe KT?) to address their God. Since this act of yrs would be a miracle, worthy of an anointed position in heaven.

      Ouch.....wakakaka

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    14. we have our own opinions about The Herald - and we'll never agree

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    15. "Since they r man-made, thus they CAN be changed with time & new insights about procedural understanding"

      Since the use of the Allah word was man-made (by Dutch missionaries) then .....??? [all by your own words]

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    16. What sort of an answer is that?

      Our opinions aside, the finding of the appellate court is fact base, even though in this case the facts had been twisted & terbalik interpreted. Moreover, even Google has a leg in it!

      Case law is used for future referencing & thus has wide interpretation than those mickey-mouse 'judges' chose to limit. This is the case of either they DONT KNOW or they DONT CARE. In my 2sen, it's both!

      Yes, the use of the Allah word was man-made & the reason had lost in time. So, start preaching to the Malay-speaking Christians to change their mindset to use KT as the alternative. In time to come (another 100+ years), perhaps they would find true communion with their KT God. Wakakaka.

      Meanwhile let the might rules as right, while the reinventing of a new name for God is been incubated to entice a blanked-minded communion with the lost followers. Brilliant! No more religion - for the calling of a name invoke no spiritual sense.

      But then there is just this little nub sat deep in the mind - everything is man-made. So given time, even the ketuanan kaki would change on their insistent about the exclusivity of kalimah Allah. Then there would be no issue. No?

      So, given long enough time, we r all going to die & face the Almighty.

      They final question could be 42, just like what the galaxy hitch-hiker finally discovers. Wakakaka.

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    17. God? you're talking to kaytee, an atheist, wakakaka

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    18. Suit yr syok-sendiri ego!

      KT, the name of a reinvented god, to please the ketuanan kaki.

      Not KT, the person of over-inflated marcher of the Allah exclusivity. Wakakaka.

      Delete
    19. Anon,
      Kaytee is like that Parrot's seller who is telling us that that parrot is not mampus

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

      Anyway, remember the old man who ask 3 questions......Look like kaytee

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg

      Delete
  12. What if the Agong issues a fatwa that is the opposite of the sultan's? Then how? Not that I am holding my breath...hehehe.

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    Replies
    1. Are you dreaming on a rainy day in tokyo ?

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    2. Ooh can't understand simple English ya? Hehehe.

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    3. Keep on dreaming !

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    4. Tsk tsk tsk. Marah nampak. Hehehe.

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  13. The Sultan just want to merajok, getting even with Kavita Kaur for reasons only he knows... wakaka

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  14. How about proposing a slightly different spelling to resolve this never ending thingy.
    I propose usng a single L instead of double L, thus ALAH for the non Muslim. It is also a convenient 4 letter word. should this make every one happy?

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  15. A pertinent question is how come only selangor sultan decrees his position on the Allah fiasco.? .Selangor is a state and the selangor sultan makes a decree? , so is that on behalf of selangor only or on behalf of royalty? Sultan is head of religion in their respective states,so doesn't that kind of confines his decree to selangor. Afterall the head of Islamic affairs of the federation is the Agung and this Allah thingy is a nationwide issue so shouldn't it be under His majesty's purview.
    Royalty above politics? Apolitical is not a word for the royalty if they wish to get involved or be dragged into this Allah issue.

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    Replies
    1. Sultan Selangor issued his fatwa or decree for only Selangor. Nowhere was it suggested that his decree was for beyond Selangor's state borders

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    2. That's the reason why the Selangor palace quoted it as a royal decree.

      Those players, behind this plot have some legal brains.

      Fatwa is only confined to Muslim, thus it's inapplicable in this kalimah Allah issue. The protagonist in this case is Non-Muslim.

      Royal decree on the other hand, hopefully is binding on the subjects of the feudalistic Selangor. In this case it's un-enforceable, as Selangor has NO citizenship jurisdiction. All Selangorreans r M'sian.

      Those smart-alecky plotters, r playing the same ketuanan game as royal decree, nowadays maybe in the case of Islamic affairs, is purely decorative.

      Delete
    3. Kaytee,
      What happen if Sabahans & Sarawakians kenna caught using Allah in Selangor? Your advice should be given to Selangor Sultan. Ask Sultan stay away from politics. Karpal Singh will agree with me

      Anyway the dayaks are extremely angry over Ibrahim Ali & soon you would be in their hate list

      http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/243926

      See how the dayak headhunters do to people like you who infringe their rights

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdgTwBfBYSw

      Delete
    4. Anonymous1:58 pm, HRH has no secular authority to pass laws, but alas, was persuaded by his advisors to issue that warning which, as you correctly pointed out, is legally unenforceable. I suspect those advisors' underlying aim is to further rile the feelings of the Heartland against the Christians

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  16. Perhaps you should actually read the Sultan's statement before passing judgment on it. What he said was neither a fatwa nor a decree. He was just reminding his subjects to abide by the laws of the state. Yes, there is a law in Selangor that prohibits the use of terms like Allah in a non Muslim context. It is called "Enakmen Ugama Bukan Islam" and was passed by the DUN in 1988. PR have had 5 years to repeal it. Why haven't they?

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  17. http://www.malaysia-today.net/mtcolumns/beritakomentar/60528-25-perkataan-yang-tidak-boleh-digunakan-oleh-bukan-islam

    In summary, here is the list:

    Perkataan itu adalah Allah, Illahi, Rasul, Fatwa, Firman Allah, Wahyu, Iman, Ulama, Mubaligh, Dakwah, Nabi, Hadith, Syariah, Injil, Sheikh, Ibadah, Qiblat, Salat, Kaabah, Haji, Khalifah, Kadi, Mufti, Wali dan ibadah.

    So "Injil", now become "buku Yesus or "Cerita2 mengenai Yesus""; "wahyu" jadi "revelasi", "nabi" tukar "_abi" etc. (by the way Tuan Syed of "Outside the Box" and Tukar Tiub points out that all the Christian nabi's are the same as the Muslims, especially Isa and worst still, based on OT, they are all Hebrews!!)

    Based on the said argument, soon Christians will need to pray in Hebrew & Greek, some Aramic & Ugarit. But maybe Hebrew pun tak boleh.. berkaitan Zionist. Without arguing the whole process of biblical translation into every man's language and the universal inclusiveness of languages... maybe KTee prophecy may be fullfilled... OM Elohim!!

    Its like the Japanese trying to sue the Indians for curry patent & Koreans for kimchi. Wakakakaka...

    ReplyDelete