Tuesday, January 01, 2013

The Church & Allah

I'm not surprised by the adverse feedback I've received regarding my post Now, who are the Arab wannabes? here as well as at Malaysia-Today, because firstly, it’s an issue related to religions and secondly, I have the seeming effrontery to side with UMNO (and PAS).

I am again not surprised that many have missed the point, evidenced by remarks like:

(a) So, based on this simple etymological track, the used of ANY word/name to describe a Superbeing that the follower used was/is Highly localised. It should not be monopolised, just like some local Muslims like to dictate!

(b) Will you be happy if I forbid you from using certain words because I find it offensive? Who am I to impose this on you? If I forbid you to call your wife, your brother or sister with an alternative name because I find it offensive with their current names which you been calling them all these years. Will you be glad? Please think through.

None of above had been what I proposed in my previous post on subject matter.


Just to refresh your memories (and a bloody lack of reading skills, wakakaka) I wrote:

While I believe on principle there ought not to be a monopolistic use of any word or words, I can understand the Muslim community's worries about the Church’s obdurate intention to use this word, especially more so when I know it’s obligatory, nay, a sacred duty of the Church and Christians to be ‘missionary’ (evangelistic).

Yes, I'm afraid on a personal basis, kaytee isn't all that supportive of the Church’s insistence on using the Allah word to represent/indicate/describe their Christian God in the Malay language.

Given the experts’ etymological and historical clarifications on the Allah word, I am in no doubt that Father Lawrence Andrew is on strong legal grounds to use it ... and indeed we know that the court has supported his stand.

But I have always believed that religion is about faith and morality and not legality or for that matter, political approval. Thus I find it unfortunate that the Father Andrew and the Catholic Herald had taken the issue to the courts. Surely on a matter of religious faith and knowledge, there are numerous other names of God it could have use beside Allah. I view its arguments for the use of Allah as seemingly based on obduracy and legality rather than any plausible unavoidable reason.

The reason why I have not (still am not) been sympathetic with the Church, I had already expressed as follows:

let us also not forget that Christianity and indeed Islam as well are both evangelistic missionary religions with an obligation on the faithful to convert the so-called pagans, for altruistic reasons of course.

So, what is the meaning of ‘missionary’ and ‘evangelistic’?

In their adjectival forms, the dictionary has these to say, respectively:

Missionary = reflecting or prompted by the desire to persuade or convert others.

Evangelistic seeking to evangelize; striving to convert sinners (where sinners mean all not within the Faith).

Dictionary also defines the word evangelize as ‘to convert to Christianity’, and where we can also substitute the word Christianity with Islam.

Thus, both Christianity and Islam require their respective followers to evangelize.

In my post I had written:

I dare say those Dutch Christian missionaries were out to convert the Indonesian pagans (Muslim and others) into Christianity with whatever it took, and would have found the use of the word Allah as a convenient substitute for the Christian God in persuading the native Muslims that the conversion to Christianity would be nothing more than a seamless worship to the same Allah, albeit with some minor adjustments to the rituals.

Thus the argument that the 16th Century Dutch had been doing this or that during dictatorial colonial circumstances would today be just not good enough for the Church to persist along that line.

Dutch church in Indonesia

Leaving aside the legal aspect, where I had already accepted that Father Lawrence Andrew is on very strong grounds, my post points out the several areas and factors where I have found the stand of the local Catholic Church and Father Lawrence Andrew quite disturbing.

Thus I asked and continue to ask again:

Really, I have to ask again of Father Lawrence Andrew and the Church: “What is really your goal in obdurately pursuing the use of the word Allah to refer to the Christian God in a Malay-language newsletter and Bible when so many other names of your Christian God, with even better biblical pedigree, remain available?”

If the aim of the Church is to spread the word of God, why not use Tuhan or Elohim or a multitude of other Hebraic names available from its source, the Tanakh. Why insist on the Allah word when everyone in Malaysia, especially Peninsula Malaysia knows that Allah is familiarly (automatically) visualized and known as the God of Islam.

Thus I quoted Friedrich Nietzsche who reminded us: “Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in pursuit of the goal.”

Isn't the goal of the Church to spread the word of its Christian God, which can be done without using the word Allah because Elohim and Yahweh and Tuhan are available? 

Why has the Church represented by the person of Father Lawrence Andrew remain stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, namely, to use the Allah word in their Catholic Newsletter, the Herald, and the Bahasa version of the Bible, al Kitab?

Without too much hubris I believe I have successfully challenged every position Father Andrew and the Church had presented as to why the Allah word is essential and cannot be substituted, but some comments here as well as at RPK’s Malaysia-Today have totally ignored my points, and continue to come up with comments equally as obdurate as Father Andrew’s or as if they haven’t read my post at all (which has been why I mentioned some readers’ ‘lack of reading skills’ wakakaka).

In other words, my post questions the sincerity of the Church’s insistence in using the Allah word, which I do not support because of the likelihood of confusion over whose (Islamic or Christian) god is Allah.

The ensuing confusion would not be unlike a dangerous sampan in a very turbulent evangelistic sea.

Now, my dear friend Ong Kian Ming wrote a piece in Malaysiakini titled Allah row - what's the name of the game?

Much as I (platonically, wakakaka) love Kian Ming (and I am not joking, he’s a great guy) I am not persuaded by his article.

He argued that as Yahwah is already translated into Tuhan, then Elohim (if also translated into Tuhan) following the Yahweh word would result in Tuhan … Tuhan, giving us a double or repetitive Tuhan which won’t make sense or provide cohesive reading for the mentioned passage.

MKINI photo

He provided the example of Exodus 29:46, which (KJV) states:

And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

Kian Ming provided the NIV (1984) version which doesn't make much difference to KJV for his arguments and the point I intend to make. But let’s use his NIV 1984 version which states:

They will know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

He argued that a Bahasa translation minus the use of the Allah word would give us:

“Mereka akan tahu bahawa Akulah TUHAN, Tuhan (rather than Allah) mereka yang telah membawa mereka kelaur dari Mesir, supaya Aku dapat tingal bersama-sama mereka. Akulah TUHAN Tuhan mereka.”

But in that translation, Kian Ming has become just like Father Lawrence - though as his matey, I believe Kian Ming has been sincere - in believing that both Yahweh and Elohim must both be translated into Tuhan.

Why, and what for? Unless you insist on making an disingenuous point?

Thus, according to his arguments, if we are to avoid the awkward Tuhan Tuhan translation, we require both the Tuhan and Allah words, so as to show each as a different word in that passage.

But my point is why must Elohim be translated from Hebrew into Arabic (Allah)? Why not retain the Elohim word as is in al Kitab instead of translating into Arabic and then daringly claim Allah is a Malay word. If one can claim the Arabic Allah is a Malay word, why not claim and use the Hebraic Yahweh and/or Elohim as also Malay words.

Thus the Bahasa translation of Exodus 29:46 should read as follows (two forms):

(a) “Mereka akan tahu bahawa Akulah TUHAN, Elohim mereka yang telah membawa mereka kelaur dari Mesir, supaya Aku dapat tinggal bersama-sama mereka. Akulah TUHAN Elohim mereka”


(b) “Mereka akan tahu bahawa Akulah Yahweh, Tuhan mereka yang telah membawa mereka kelaur dari Mesir, supaya Aku dapat tingal bersama-sama mereka. Akulah Yahweh Tuhan mereka”

I personally prefer the second. And don't forget, we also have Adonai, El Elyon, El Shaddai, El Olam, etc.

Sorry, Kian Ming, as a matey I regret I can’t even say ‘good try’ because your arguments have been based on the totally incorrect premise that the Allah word is a Bahasa word when it’s patently not – it is as Middle-Eastern (Arabic) as much as are Yahweh and Elohim (Hebrew).

Now, what about my idol Karpal Singh’s comments in Malaysiakini’s that Karpal rises to Guan Eng's defence over 'Allah' row which reported:

DAP national chairperson Karpal Singh has risen to the defence of the party's secretary-general Lim Guan Eng's Christmas day call for Christians to be allowed to use the term 'Allah', stating that it was not intended to hurt Muslim sensitivities.

He explained that Lim's call was meant for Christians in Sabah and Sarawak where the word has been in use for generations.

I think that’s fair enough, though if we have already published a Malay edition of the al Kitab which uses Elohim instead of Allah, why not use it to acquaint Sabahan and Sarawakian Christians on the Elohim and/or Yahweh word(s). Why have a further division of Peninsula from the Eastern States even in al Kitab?

It is surprising, therefore, that Penang Umno secretary Azhar Ibrahim has publicly come out with a scathing attack on the Penang chief minister that what he had said in his Christmas message should not hurt the feelings of Muslims, he said in a statement yesterday.

Indeed, why should it ‘hurt’ Muslim feelings. The bloke is just talking cock in his attempt to arouse ethnic emotions.

But what Muslims are genuinely worried is the potential for proselytizing Muslims via al Kitab with the Allah word. That’s what the real danger for Muslims and Islam is.

But I see Azhar Ibrahim by his remarks as more interested in stirring the ethnic shit pot than protecting Islam..

Karpal added that in any event, the use of the word 'Allah' should not affect the sensitivities of Muslims in the country.

The word ‘Allah' appears 37 times in the Sikh holy book. No objection has ever been taken by Muslims for the use of that word by Sikhs when reciting their holy book.

Bhai, the Muslims aren't concerned about the use of the Allah word in the Guru Granth Sahib because Sikhism is NOT an evangelistic religion, as neither is Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism.

But Christianity is!

Yes, Christianity is an evangelistic missionary religion. I personally have experienced its evangelistic reach to me, and even though I have had 12 years of Methodist Christian schooling and several years of Bible classes after I left school, I'm not impressed by the Church’s missionary efforts directed at me.

Thus the only bhais the Muslims need to be worried about would be the Christian bhais wakakaka.

Yes, many do not know that apart from Punjabi Sikhs, there are also Punjabi Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc, and possibly Punjabi atheists as well, wakakaka.

Now, why aren't the Muslim Arabs themselves bothered by Christian Arabs using the Allah word in the al Kitab?

Mateys, they are all Arabs and Arabic is their language. They know there are Muslim, Christian, Druze and Mandaean Arabs, and all use the Arabic language.


But in Malaysia, we may say (leaving aside the minorities of Lina Joyce and a few other Malays who aren't Muslims) that virtually 99.999999999999% of Malays are Muslims and their God of Islam is Allah swt, and these are all off limits to any proselytizing (even in Bahasa), according to the laws of the country.

Would it be contributing to the stability of the nation when such a sensitive issue as the potential proselytizing of Muslims, and thus the potential violation of specific state laws, hang over our heads just because the Church obdurately, implausibly and selfishly demands to use an Arabic word Allah to mean the Christian God, by the nonsensical claim it’s a Bahasa word (it’s not!), and when other Middle-Eastern words with better biblical pedigree to indicate the Judeo-Christian God exist for use in the Bahasa al Kitab?

The Church and the Muslim clerics can go about proselytizing the non-Christian non-Muslim orang asli of Peninsula and orang asal of Sabah and Sarawak or for that matter, anyone including kaytee wakakaka, but I strongly urge the Church to stay out of the Islamic turf.

We non-Christians and non-Muslims don’t want to be unwittingly drag into the wake of your holy mission to your God.

And my dear Kian Ming, you needn't worry about the reference to Jesus as God and Saviour in the al Kitab so long as the Allah word is not mentioned, because then the Muslims' fear about the potential for the Church to proselytize Muslims will be much neutralized without the Allah word, which (sneers aside) can indeed confuse Muslims into believing the Allah mentioned in al Kitab is the same God of Islam.

To reiterate, apart from seeing what’s right and what’s wrong, we non-Christians non-Muslims aren't impressed by the potential to be unwittingly and unwillingly swept into the turbulent wake of the Church's selfish and indefensible insistence in using the Allah word which is as good as intruding into a sensitive area.

p/s And as an aside, my visitor Hua Yong succinctly captures the attitude of the Chinese in his story about:


Elohim were translated into both ‘shen’ () and ‘shangdi’ (上帝)in Chinese, ‘shen’ is actually quite confusing because both Tao and Confucius use the term ‘shen’ but the amusing part is not many care. So the bible pusher would ask the Chinese do you prefer the ‘shen’ edition or ‘shangdi’ edition? As long as you make sure my kids pass exam, whatever edition would do, i guess this is most probably how Chinese would reply.

Correct, correct, correct wakakaka, because the Chinese have had thousands of years of Confucian indoctrination where the old sage taught them to ‘revere the gods but keep them at a distance’ and may kaytee just add to this incredible piece of wisdom with ‘especially and particularly their priests’ wakakaka.


  1. .

    Dear KT

    I first raised my objection to the use

    of Allah by the catholic church when it was

    initially approved

    by ex PM Dolah in 2008 in Tranungkite. However

    the gomen in its wisdon

    soon reviewd the issue and retracted the

    approval soon after .

    My suspicion was that the church was trying to

    spread christianity to melayus. My logic eas

    Christianity was

    a religon with people leaving the church and

    many are

    converting to Islam at a fairly respectable


    One can google at people converting to Islam

    and one can read

    stories in the Daily Mail of such conversions.

    See list -http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/List_of_converts_to_Islam

    The catholic church has always been involved in

    political intrigue.
    It got involved in the politics of

    imperialism. In ' Elizabeth 1 and

    'Elizabeth 11' the pope in Rome was always

    trying to dominate England.

    The smart Chancellor Walsingham managed to

    outfoxed the catholic church

    and exterminated the papal representatives in

    England and weaned England

    of the influence of the catholic church.

    In 'Michael Collins' the might of the catholic

    church did not help

    Michael Collins and the Irish fighters to gain

    their liberation from

    the English and hence create a class difference

    in the mind of the

    Irish people [between church and the Irish]

    As a person , I am always suspicious of the

    catholic church.

    Does the gomen know what the catholic church is

    up to?

    The church sends money to Rome , manila and

    other christian cities on

    a regular basis....


    Why catholics must not use Allah to refer

    to their God?

    In the bible , god is a 3 -in- 1 thingy.

    God [in the bible ] manifests itself as

    The Father

    The Son

    and The Holy Ghost

    On the hand Islam is a religion based on


    Allah says in surah Al ikhlas [in simple form]-


    'I am one, I procreate not, nor was I a product of procreation'

    Simply put , Allah needs no associate [ no Holy


    nor does He has a son [Jesus],

    nor has He a Father.

    See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp-6ofzUuVI

    Allah is simply One [not a Father to Jesus]

    and has

    and need no other associates,[no holy ghost


    nor does he has a son [Jesus]

    One need not be a big Ulama, Imam or professor

    to understand this.

    No thick theses are required to come to this



    The principle is simple and bare.

    There is only one God. but when a 3 in 1 God

    is introduced, it is a deviation from Islam

    It is murtad - puts one out of Islam

    The Sikh Religion

    Melayus should have no issue with Allah in

    the sikhism.


    The sikhs are referring to the one god and not

    to a 3-in-1 god!

    If any belief system has a single unique god,


    belief system is not in conflict with the

    definition of

    Allah in the surah Al ikhlas above

    I must congratulate you for your insight into

    this Allah issue

    khong khek khuat


  2. Research more especially the history. You forgot some important facts!

    In a way, you were also being disrespectful to all Malay speaking Christians in Sabah and Sarawak.

    I dare the government to enforce the ruling in Sabah & Sarawak and see what happens.

    1. The real name of the Judeo-Christian God is, according to the Jewish Bible, Elohim and NOT Allah. In what way am I disrespectful in reminding Malaysian Christians of this?

    2. Oh boy...

      You're ignorant KT. No amount of intelligence will work if
      you're ignorant. Or maybe you purposely omitted some important facts. Or maybe you don't think there are important.

      Your article doesn't help at all. It's skewed.

    3. KT has shown his intellect in this article. The ignorant one is you Anonymous. You cannot debate and refute like KT can.
      Here is some truth that can give u a shock.

      Christians have changed Yaweh's name to Father, And then they made Jesus the son of the Father./God.!!! Not only that, by calling their Priest Father,they thus made their Priests a God too.!!!
      I am sure Yaweh is angry about that.!!!
      The same deception will happen when Christians change their God's name to Allah. Allah will then also be given the name Father. Then Jesus can be made the son. And by calling their Priest Father, the Priests get to be Allah too.!!! You think Allah would like this.???

      This is what Christian deception is about. They must have learned this deception trick from Hitler's Propoganda Minister,Joeseph Geobbles, who said,"A lie repeated many times, becomes a truth."
      They must have learned this deception trick from Satan too, because Satan is the Chief Deceiver.
      Refer Quran.31:33 "... nor let the Chief Deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allah."
      Quran 35:5 "O men! certainly the promise of Allah is true, Let not then this present life deceive you, nor let the Chief Deceiver deceive you about Allah."

  3. I forwarded your earlier article to an Iban friend, who belongs to the SIB church. And here's his response...
    His family have been Christians for some 100 years. No murtad involved, since they were never Muslims. Among the older and less highly educated of the community, the only written language they can understand is Malay or rather the Malay dialect used in the interior of Sarawak, very similar to Bahasa Indonesia.

    So it was patently a violation of their Constitutional rights for the Malaysian government to deny them the right of access to Malay bibles (for a long time).

    They have been using "Allah" as a name for God for , well, a long time. Elohim ? What is that ? It is a name largely unknown in their community, except those who read English Language bibles.

    You can patronizingly tell them they are ignorant or lack education, because Elohim is correct from a scholarly point of view, but who are you, or the Government of Malaysia to tell the that ?

    As an (imperfect) analogy which Chinese Buddhists may understand. GuanShiYin Pusa is the most revered Boddhisatva in the Chinese Buddhist community. Lets say suddenly, by some official edict, you may no longer use the name GuanShiYin, but only allowed to use Janraisig. It is a perfectly correct equivalent from Tibetan Buddhism, but unknown among most Chinese, a lot Chinese Buddhist would say "get lost, Buster".

    1. your Buddhist analogy - does it involve two competing and different proselytizing religions?

  4. 'My suspicion was that the church was trying to

    spread christianity to melayus.'

    If Muslims can openly and sanctioned by law proselytize and convert non-Muslims then what's wrong with Christians using Allah? The Church as KT wrongly pointed out is not bent on converting Muslims. What the Church does not want is for a state sanctioned religion to prey upon others in the name of the Muslim God Allah. As KT rightly pointed out 99.99999999% of Malays are Muslims therefore the Malays see the word Allah as exclusively theirs while the Arabs couldn't be bothered with non-Muslims using the word Allah because after all in the Middle East they are all Arabs and Arabic is their language. Then the issue is one of race and not religion. This is exactly what the Church does not want. Like it or not Islam as practiced in Malaysia is essentially and legally racist in nature. The main concern of Muslims in Malaysia is not just the murtad problem but that of the Malay population falling relative to the other races. Want to stop the Christians from using Allah? Very simple. Pass a law in parliament making it illegal for ALL Malaysians to convert from ones religion at birth.

  5. There is little historical evidence of mass scale proselytising by Dutch Christian missionaries among the East Indies Muslim population - no doubt there was some small scale activity going on.
    At the point of Indonesian Independence, 1945, the Christian population of staunchly Muslim Java and coastal areas of Sumatra was very small. What happened was that Islam did not penetrate far into the interior of most of the East Indies islands, even 7 centuries after the arrival of Islam in the Archipelago.

    The Dutch Protestant missionaries were just much more hardworking than the Muslim dakwah. Don't blame them for their diligence.
    So it is unfair to accuse the Dutch of translating the Bible using "Allah" to convert Muslims. The East Indies had (still has) a large population of ethnic Malay but non-Muslim population , and the Dutch made the effort to make their translated Bible accessible and understandable to the local population. As an aside, the English language Bible similarly has many Anglicized names and concepts, the base version being Old Greek.

    Malay = Muslim = Malay is an artificial construct of the 1957 Malayan Constitution and is not the law of the land in Indonesia.

    Today, Evangelistic Protestanism is the fastest growing religion in Indonesia, and yes, there are Muslims becoming Christians. But that is Indonesia, which has not placed legal strictures against peaceful missionary activities by any religion , including among Muslims. Frankly, it is largely due to the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of Islamic scholarship today. Focused on superficial forms and a destructive reaction against modern society.
    Many Malay youths in Malaysia are simlarly completely alienated from Islam, but they have no right to choose.

    I was shocked the first time I watched a commercial TV channel in Indonesia broadcasting Sunday Christian worship service - in Bahasa Indonesia, talking about Allah this and Allah that....

    My BTN-trained mind was expecting a riot to break out at any moment, burning down the church and roasting everyone in it......nothing of the sort happened.

    Malaysia has strict laws against any attempt to convert Muslims out of Islam, and there is no evidence there is any such activity going on, in spite of rumours of "Solar Powered Bibles"

    1. forget about solar powered bibles - Hasan Ali is just a politician and an unpleasant one at that.

      Indons are like Arabs, knowing there are Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu Indons. But Malays are all (legally and religiously) Muslims. As they say, lain padang, lain belalang.

    2. Oh sure ! Memang lain padang lain belalang.....oooh, what a difference a borderline make ! The moment you step into that piece of land demarked as Malay-sia, you are under the grip of these group of Melayus Campur leaders who have truly hijacked and cornered every field, and had lead ( and still leading )the malay masses, even the educated ones, by the nose like badak sumbus held by the nose rings.

      Methinks the only way out of this religious conundrum is to revert back to the original suggestion ( or is it a ruling already ? ) of letting the Sabahans and Sarawakians to continue what they have been doing and practising for all this while, but let sleeping dog lie in the West. Basically, no change in status quo. Some might say this is again dividing the Malaysians but all this while, have the East and West malaysians ever felt like "ONE" before ? Even when we want to travel to the East, those from the West have to produce our passports as though going into a foreign country.

      Enough already lah all you pariah politickus and the all you holey religious blind leading the blind.

  6. The whole point is that the church is not insistent on using the word as itbis and was alresdy in use before malaysia even existed. The church is protecting them people from being forced to CHANGE an existing practice. First come first serve

  7. What about this. Muslims say tiada TUHAN melainkan Allah. They want the Christians to say tiada TUHAN kecuali TUHAN. TUHAN sebenar ialah TUHAN. RUKUN NEGARA SAys kepercayaan kepada TUHAN.. COME TO THINK OF IT.. good idea. Lets call the Christian god TUHAN.... then everywhere malaysians will profess kepercayaan kepada TUHAN.. that will confuse the katak bawah tempurung more!

    1. .



      christianity has a 3-in-1 god

      so by your logic ,

      tiada tuhan melainkan [bapa] tuhan, anak tuhan,

      kawan tuhan [holy ghost] .

      so that does not sound right , there is no finality

      to the negatively structured sentence. Comprehende?

      ada paham kah?

      if one say there is no god except one and only Allah

      then it sounds right.

      It is the concept that matters.

      It matters not if called his god Mr One, The One Up There,

      The Great , The Beneficient , the Benevolent......[there are

      ninety nine names recorded by our earlier predecessors.

      As Muslims, we accept the veracity of

      the earlier holy books -Injil [evangelical], Torah, Zabur

      At the end of the day we are generations that had followed

      prophet Abraham. There is no need to be fighty about the

      name we called our God Allah. Surely at some point when Isa

      [jesus] was around, todays muslims [had we been around

      then ] would have called God by the

      same name proscribed by God to him [Isa].

      Mind you when our British Masters were ruling this

      country , they in their wisdom did not alter the status quo.

      It would be unthinkable for the catholics power brokers to

      play pucks with the colonialists then. No Allah for

      catholics then. Knowing the high nosed Brits well

      and their propensity to look down on

      natives [ their favourite word] , the British Colonials

      leave the natives im the hands of the converting catholics

      priests from europe.

      Go ask any European in the cities of Europe

      if they believe in the catholic church ?

      You can tell me your guess.

      In the Uk , enterprising Malaysians have been buying churches

      probably hoping to convert them into residences.

      I met a lady from Petaling Jaya whose husband operates

      a church in Autralia as a self paying business.

      Muslims treat our belief as an integral part of self [like id,

      est or ego]. There are christians think it is a game -to win





      makes them happy


  8. I shall always remember what you wrote in the last para in yellow.

  9. Jakim says "Allah" is an exclusive Muslim copyright.


    End of the road for the Church ?

    1. why end of the road for the Church? Unless it persists (in Peninsula Malaysia) in the use of the Allah word as the Christian God in the Bahasa edition (or section) of the Catholic Herald and al Kitab

    2. or if the government appeal fails against the court's ruling that it's okay for the Catholic Church to use the Allah word

  10. ALLAH is a name. Nama Khas. So in truth there is no such thing as Allah in Malay. As the Malay language existed before the knowledge of Allah or God reached Malaya.
    So whether Christian or Muslim, there is no such thing as TUHAN is the NAME of God as there is no Christian God in the Malay language. They can call God Yahweh, God, Elohim. They chose to call him Allah as that is His Name. Whether you like it or not that is his NAME. Even the prophet and his companions referred to the Christian God as Allah as that is his NAME. So dont tell others they cant call Him by His NAME.

  11. Simple minds need Simple sentence structures.
    What crap. Only Muslims have their religion as integral part of their self? That sentence is just reflects the narrow mindedness and ignorance of the other religions. No wonder there is a problem with perkara remeh temeh. Missing the bigger picture of corruption, incest, rape, human rights abuses, violation oforang asli rights etc etc

  12. many years back in mt, i asked a respected laoshi lchuah y he rarely comment on anything religion, he replied he dun like debate on religion matter but never tell y, and after all this year i guess i know y. no end one. being a west msian, i think i agree with kt, but i would disagree with kt if i am a east msian, i would become blur blur if i see myself as malaysian and i am very clear where i stand shd i see myself as global citizen. so how?

    every malay, non malay, muslim, non muslim, east msian, west msian, non msian, philosopher, epistemologist, etymologist, historian, theologian and even a blogger have their own view n opinion. the fantastic part is all of them r not wrong.

    so good luck kt.

    ps/ i think sometimes we have to close one eye on certain issue, or both if necessary. we shd just play, eat n drink during christmas, it's a happy occasion.

  13. Kaytee,
    See what happens when you stick your nose in something you should never set foot in. This time is like jumping into the yellow river, you will never cleanse.
    Who the f are you anyway? You are just a pathetic high opiniated atheist. I thought We as much as you have right to profess any religion that includes using any words including Allah for malay speaking christians.
    Poseltying? What is the fking the purpose of your blog? If not poseltying your belief? Ok la, I agree to disagree with you but as for your solution, no thanks! I say, f those who brings this matter up. Perhaps, we should do it the Tun Lim Keng yaik method. What the f is Lim Keng yaik method. Go figure!

    1. Happy New Year my dear looes74

      purpose of my blog? I have stated it above as "A meeting place to exchange views, no matter how different or diverse these may be. Keeping these civil and courteous would be appreciated"

      "Keeping these civil and courteous would be appreciated"? wakakaka

  14. Christians have the concept of the Trinity - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
    To Muslims, there is no God but Allah, and Allah is indivisible.

    I'm very clear that Allah is not the God of Christianity. So substituting Allah into a Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia Christian bible is likely an attempt to confuse native readers. The Church groups are exposing themselves to the suspicion that this is an attempt at converting Muslims, whether or not it is actually occuring.

    You can keep your Trinity, but please don't call Him Allah

  15. "I am who I am" said the Lord to Moses.
    After 2600 years, different cultures; humans sprung out.
    The Lord has many names now.
    But one born, without a father or mother, came out from nowhere, whose named is "Salem" is considered the Mighty One, by smart ones.
    If God did not reveal his name to Moses, who are we to give him, a names?
    Go ahead, keep spinning.
    I agree, "Allah" is not God's name. It is a just a word and no one can claim it, especially Umno hypocrites, trying hard to stir up trouble with religion.
    Ktemoc is fanning the sparks into a fire.

  16. It is incorrect for the Church to utilise the Old Testament independently and conclude God = Allah.
    If you study the Old Testament, New Testament, Koran and Sunnah, it is clear that Christianity and Islam are very different faiths, admittedly with common roots.

    The Christian God or Theos in Greek, from which the King James Bible was mainly translated is not Allah.

    When I attend the mosque on Friday, I'm very clear I'm not praying to the Christian Theos.


  17. When Jesus [Peace be Upon him] was alive,

    he was a Prophet

    of Allah .And the Allah that Jesus and his followers

    was referring to is

    The One and Only God as per surah al Ikhlas.


    See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp-6ofzUuVI

    Paul and the 3-in-1 god

    Paul [or Saul] came much later after Christ.

    He was the guy

    who declared that Jesus was God. And another associte

    of God was

    also created by Paul in the form of the holy Ghost.

    And 60 years or so after

    jesus had left the earth , New Testaments were written by

    Paul and his associates giving a 3-in-1 god

    for followers of Jesus

    That the church had been questioned on the validity

    of some of their key

    doctrines are nothing new. People like Martin Luther

    and Galileo had questioned papal doctrines.

    As KT advised read, read , read and one will find answers.

    Now , I hope one will understand why in the times before the

    glorious life of Jesus , [or thousands of years before that]

    the definition of God was per surah al Ikhlas.

    Google is a super search engine. One will find answers that one need

    to know the Allah that you so much want to declare as god .

    In the spirit of the new year,[ To All of You

    who sincerely wants to know his Allah ]

    I pray that your quest for Allah will be a great success .

    Again use the surah al Ikhlas as your guide.

    Khong khek khuat

  18. Good article....keep up the good work KT...

  19. KT, as a born Catholic, here's my perspective. We catholics never even knew that Allah was used by the Christians in East Malaysia as the Malay section of the Herald was only included in copies sold there, (for economic reasons, of course). When the Allah issue surfaced, the arguement by the church was, "Why bring this up now? When the Christians had already been using this word for hundreds of years? Dont you agree that the height of arrogance and superiority complex is to ask an entire religious community to change their scriptures to please a regime intent on staying in power by politicising non issues? Although the evangelistic agenda has always existed in Christian philosophy, ARE the Christians using Allah to convert Muslims? And if the Muslims are converting, who's to blame. Nurul's statement that there is no conpulsion in Islam got some people jumping, but IF (just if) all compulsions were removed, and religion became the free chioce of all citizens without administrative restriction, just how many would actually convert?

    FYI, the FIRST translation of the bible in a NON-EUROPEAN language was in Malay, in 1614. it used Allah in all refences to God. Why has it taken the Malays 400 years to suddenly realise that Allah was an Islamic franchise? Finally, please understand the pressures on the judicial system and the presiding judge when she decided that the Govt's ban on the use of the word Allah was flawed. Despite the prevailing sentiment, on the point of law and history, the court decided to throw the ban on allah out.

    Now, you probably will not publish this comment and I understand if you don't. But your article is mere rhetoric and doesn't take the points I made into account. I'm a fan, and I follow your articles, but I'm dissappointed that you too decided to jump into the fray in this issue

  20. Again,
    I am not going to spend so much time debating on this. What's there to debate? Kaytee has his piss on this subject. Mine still stands still. The malay speaking christian folks have been using allah for centuries. Who gives you guys the right to stop us from using it for.
    Plus what happen to the sikh & bahai? What if Karpal comes out and say his god also called Allah. Then how, kaytee.....Challenge Karpal also....
    Even the court also backs the malay speaking christians. So what's next then? Best advice.....Drop the case

    To those hypocrites,
    Remember if you guys wanna bully those malay speaking christians, wait till you face Indonesians even if they are muslims.....Right now, Indons hated hypocrites in Malaysia so much that they don't care whether muslim kah, christian.....Just hantam only
    Give up la! You guys are defending the indefensible! Here is the history about the challenge to one famous christian monk


    Plus, since kaytee into religion, do hope that folks won't turn into these acts, even muslims also will kowtow


    Happy readings........

    P.S : Ktemoc might have thought himself to be marcus aurelius.......Such a display on his attitude on this subject gives light to who he's......By the way, I felt to associate kaytee with marcus is really an insult to the stoic philosophical emperor


    1. My dear dear looes74,

      In fact Karpal has done so, so obviously you haven't read my entire post.

      Here's what I have posted above:

      Karpal added that in any event, the use of the word 'Allah' should not affect the sensitivities of Muslims in the country.

      The word ‘Allah' appears 37 times in the Sikh holy book. No objection has ever been taken by Muslims for the use of that word by Sikhs when reciting their holy book.

      Bhai, the Muslims aren't concerned about the use of the Allah word in the Guru Granth Sahib because Sikhism is NOT an evangelistic religion, as neither is Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism.

      But Christianity is!


      I forgot to add that the Guru Granth Sahib is not written in Malay, nor will there be a likely Bahasa version.

      It's the combination of (i) al Kitab in Bahasa plus the use of (ii) the Allah word in it to indicate the Christian God as well as (iii) the evangelistic nature of Christianity that have worried the Malays

  21. To all folks,
    This is what Lim keng Yaik has said nong nong time ago


    It means if you do bad foolish, we will do the same. I felt it's time to close the chapter & move on before it got hurts.

    1. "It means if you do bad foolish, we will do the same"....adoi, pandai nya. In Malay-sia, before the other side embark on their own vengeance of 'bad foolish' to repay in kind, please check before hand who's actually holding all the cards...meaning who's the stronger one laa...having ALL the guns, goons and much more which they would unleash without an iota of compassion onto the helpless defendless masses.

      Don't play play with those who's determined to hold on to power at all cost.

    2. Gandhi advised that applying the biblical "an eye for an eye" will soon leave the entire world blind, wakakaka

  22. I fully agree with Ktemoc on the subject.

    If I may extend the logic further, the tiny minority of Taoists, Buddhists, Christians and Hindus in Kelantan should refrain from insisting on patronising Unisex hair salons, in the interest of not impinging upon the religious sensitivities of the overwhelming Muslim majority in the state.

    No doubt the minorities are actually on solid legal ground, as the 1957 Merdeka constitution clearly protects the right of non-Muslims to have their hair cut by members of the opposite gender.

    It is more about preserving peace and goodwill, and avoiding the suspicion in the Muslim community that Unisex hair salons serve to weaken the morals of Muslim men, especially.

    Perfectly acceptable alternatives exist in Kota Bahru, ranging from Mamak barbers to London-trained professionals hairdressers.

    Why can't the Chinese, especially, accept the alternatives which have already been offered ?

    1. they are different issues - one is proselytizing, converting Muslims into Christians or Christians into Muslims which I fear will invoke trouble; the other does not interfere with another religion (just hair cutting or holding hands or even kissing); likewise, the religion that doesn't condone kissing, holding hands and having the opposite gender cut one's hair must not interfere with the more liberal values of non-Muslims nor impose Islamic morals on non-Muslims.

      In other words, I respect your religion and do not attempt to convert your disciples or practices, and you too respect my religious values and don't interfere with my way of life

    2. I disagree with the "Allah Is God" poster above, but I can understand his frame of mind.

      In a way, the "Allah" issue and the Kelantan Unisex hairdresser issue are all actually linked in a continuum.

      I'm afraid the attitude of Official Islam towards non-Muslims in Malaysia is increasingly - "you WILL respect and comply with Islamic religious values in all areas".
      Common by-laws, state and Federal regulations impose Islamic rules and mores on non-Muslims. Its Syariah law via the backdoor i.e. via Islamized Civil laws and regulations.

      This increasingly slippery slope is, I suspect, also the reason why the Catholic church is behaving with such stubbornness or "intransigence" as some have characterised it, over the "Allah" issue.
      The Church has avoided involvement in temporal and purely social issues, but where there is perceived interference in Christian religious practice, they are speaking out loudly.

      The MCCBCHST, which provides a forum for most of the non-Muslim religious groups in Malaysia have expressed similar alarm over Government policy.

    3. Rubbish talk by kt. Show the numbers. How many of other faiths have been converted to muslims. How many muslims have been converted to other faiths in Malaysia.

  23. You are more intelligent/clear sighted than the PAS Ulamas before their U-turn. Great job matey.

    I made reference to you Arab Wanabe article in my article @..


  24. Razak, et al
    Allah never said the Christians and the Jews are musyrikin in the Quran. Allah never said the Christians and the Jews are worshipping false gods in the Quran. Please do not put words into Allah's 'mouth'as did a lot of ulamaks who made their own interpretations depending on whether a Christian or a Jew spit on their bowls or step on their toes or knocked off their kopiah.
    What is clear in the Quran is Allah admonishing the Jews and the Christians. And as for the Christians, the Quran is clear, they have gone 'astray' and they should come back to the right path, the path of Islam (submission to Allah).
    Going astray is different from worshipping idols or false gods. If your son goes 'astray' does it mean that you are no longer you? Allah remains. He is angry with the Jews and He is upset that the Christians have gone 'astray'. He wants them back on the right path. Allah remains the One, the Eternal.
    How have the Christians gone astray? 1. They believe in intercession (saints, mother mary, pope, priests, etc). 2. They believe Nabi Isa is the 'Son' of God (son=incarnate, divine manifestation, etc), and hence is worthy of worship 3. They believe in Original Sin to justify the presence of God Incarnate in their teachings.
    Allah says, pure nonsence. I am One, the Eternal. Submit to me. Ask from me forgiveness if you trangress, don't ask dead saints, wali, etc. Dont ask living ulamaks, ustaz, whoever. Just ask Me.
    What is so difficult? Do your solat. Submit to Me. Don't change and interprete the Quran in your own way. You may just be used by Syaitan to cause more mayhem and misunderstanding.



  25. Just my informal "survey", chats with various Malay friends and acquaintances led me to conclude almost all Malays disagree with "Allah" being used by Christians.
    This included UK and Australian-educated professionals who are quite liberal in other matters. The unity of opinion is quite amazing.

    I suppose that is the reason for PAS "repositioning" itself on the "Allah" issue. Otherwise they would have been heavily out of touch with their Muslim base.

  26. In conclusion it is not the name ALLAH which is the issue but the insecurities and fears of some Muslims., not trusting in the power of their truth. So weak that it is easy to be confused ? That you need force by law to keep the numbers. Look at east Malaysia, mainly Christian, use of Allah to convert who? To confuse who? Dont be so arrogant to think that the Christians would change the name of their God in their holy book just to convert Muslims. What rubbish. No one is that important.

    1. Then why did the issue came up?
      Why bother seeking legal stand to obtain permission?
      The vast majority might not have experience or came across but that does not mean that the attempt of converting Muslim is non-existence.

    2. The issue came because the locals became paranoid and tried to change an EXISTING practice. The legal stand was to prevent the government from taking AWAY the right to practise the faith as it has been for generations. Using ALLAH is not NEW.

  27. Allah in the Quran does not mind using His name as the One God, but He/Allah definitely abhors those who say he has a son, and those who say he is a Trinity sharing his powers with a "dead Jesus" and a "Holy Pontianak/Ghost".
    The Quran verses below states Allah's anger with Christians.
    Quran 5:72 and 5:73, (Proof that Jesus is not God and Allah is not a trinity.)
    "They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers. (72) They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve."(73)
    Quran 112: (Proof that Allah has no son.)
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    "Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not(give birth) nor was begotten(born). (3) And there is none comparable unto Him." (4)

    Read more @ http://warongpakyeh.blogspot.com/2013/01/christian-changing-gods-name-is.html

    1. Not everyone believes in the koran. You have a right in it. Non muslims have aright to nit believe in it. You have aright to call christianity a false religion. Christians have a right to believe that Allah is the triune god. Just because the koran says so, doesnt mean its true to non muslims. You have no right to enforce your belief to others just as they have no right to enforce their belief unto you. History has shown that wars have been fought and millions have died because of not accepting anothers' rights. Let Allah be the judge. Relax la brother.

  28. Just how ridiculous has the fear and suspicion of Christian proselytizing become ?
    Here's a little story I was told which occurred in a town in Perak.
    It concerns a humble Malay man, with little education and no skills. One of those that the New Economic Policy has abandoned by the wayside. Nevertheless, he needed to earn an honest living to feed his family. His crime ?
    He took an a job as the caretaker of a local Church. He tended the garden, washed the toilets and cleaned the Church hall. For that he was paid a decent wage and even EPF contributions. It was the first formal employment he had for years. Nobody tried to convert him to Christianity.
    Last year he received a visit from the Perak religious Gestapo. He was ordered to stop working for the Church as it will weaken his Akidah or Islamic faith. The Church was warned not to employ a Malay Muslim again.

    Just a little snippet of a story from the fine example of a "Moderate" Islamic country of Malaysia.

  29. Surah Al Ikhlas, (112) states the Oneness of Allah in no uncertain terms. It explains the concept of Tawhid ar-Rububiyyah, the strict monotheism of Islam. Allah is One, the Eternal. Allah cannot be found in His creations. He is unique, One, Eternal. By this surah, Muslims rule out theological concepts like The Son, Divine Incarnate, Divine Manifestation etc as believed by christians, hindus, etc. By this surah, it is shrik to believe it is possible to seek the Divine within us as believed by the Sufis, the jewish sect kaballah, the vedantist, etc.
    Allah is unique, external to us, and as such we sujud to Him, we seek his Help ( dan hanya kepada Engkaulah kami meminta pertolongan ), we seek His forgiveness.

    Christians have placed themselves in a bind by coming out with the concept of Original Sin to support the claimed divinity of Jesus (otherwise why would God manifest Himself on earth?). Muslims do not believe in the Original Sin.

    In the eyes of Muslims, Christians have gone astray and is committing shrik. It is just emotionally untenable that Christians should associate their God with the strict monotheistic Muslim Allah.

    My this explanation is to illustrate to reasonable Christians why we Muslims get so worked up over your intention to refer to your God as Allah. It is just so emotionally untenable.

    I would like to suggest to all reasonable minded Christians to please convey to your church leaders to just drop this demand. It is just not tenable. It does not add an iota to your faith nor do you lose anything. And on balance you have more to lose than to gain, as you are not living in a secular community and since most of your neighbours are Muslims.



  30. Quran is not proof. It is a belief.

  31. "I'm afraid the attitude of Official Islam towards non-Muslims in Malaysia is increasingly - "you WILL respect and comply with Islamic religious values in all areas".
    Common by-laws, state and Federal regulations impose Islamic rules and mores on non-Muslims. Its Syariah law via the backdoor i.e. via Islamized Civil laws and regulations" ...written by Golgotha

    There is no doubt about this creeping islamization, and soon when the muslim population in our country exceeds 75%, this 'creeping' will turn into full galloping......whither Najib's globe-speak to the whole world about Malaysia being the face of a modern, moderate-liberal islam in a 'genuine' multiracial multicultural setting ?

  32. I was reading from the side and think KT handle this very well. Kudos to you. I have my own opinion but I think I want to restrain save to highlight the false misleading statements.

    Many Have claimed that weved used Bm bibles in Malaysia for centuries. This is a false and misleading statement. I'll explain the situationdyn east and west Malaysia separately.

    In sabah christianity was only introduced by Basel
    Mission to the migrant Hakka community in 1880s. Later it spread to tamil migrants. They don't use bm bible. No evidence bm was used pre 1900.

    In Sarawak christianity was only brought in by the rajah Brooke family. No evidence of bm bible breing used. Circa 1920s an Australian missionary grooup started on a small scale to convert the indigenous people. They were known as Borneo evangelical
    Movement (bEM) which was if not mistaken around 1950s became known as Sidang injil Borneo (SIB). They spread to sabah to convert the indegenous people around 1937. They felt the need to have translation bible and in 1950s embarked on bm translation with Indonesian missionaries.

    So bm bible was only widely used in easy Malaysia ala Indon after 1950s.

    In peninsular, though we have bible being translated during the colonial period it's not been used. In peninsular Allah has been used in bm for centuries to refer to Muslim god ie yang maha esa which has no son and no father. Christinaity among non Malays don't use bm bible until now. Preaching to Malay is deem offensive and under our constitution it provides as an illegal act. What about orang asli? It was only introduced to them in 1930s.

    So please don't argue it's been used by Christians in Malaysia for centuries. Our social history does not support that. But we do have usage of Allah in bm to refer to Muslim god for centuries. This is the same definition as Allah in English. Though the root word is Arabic the use of Allah in bm by the community in Malaysia is exclusively for Muslim god. It's similar usage in the English language. Please check the English dictionaries.

    On the argument that Malay being weak in faith, I'll reserve my comment still. On the same basis I can easily argue it's the Christians who is weak in faith.

    1. There is difference between"used for " and for " generations. " by your writing you have admitted that it has been used for generations. And you have admitted that it has been used before Malaysia was even formed. Just because there was no bible in print certainly does not mean that it was not used verbally.

  33. Kt Sir, you must have alot of comments you did not approve.
    Who are they Sir?
    Did Monsterball and Sunwayopal write anything?

    1. There were a couple (mainly by Anons) I didn't publish because I couldn't quite make out their relevance to the post even though I stretched my imagination and exercise my liberalness. Read as if they were leaving messages for their friends(?)

      Sorry, can't recall those two nicks.

  34. I think its ironic that in this 3-cornered Abrahamic religious argument - Islam, Christianity and Judaism, it is Islam and the Yahudi who are the most closely aligned.

    Christianity has truly strayed far from the path, with its Anthropomorphic God.
    God had - a Son (!) in Jesus, who certainly walked the earth as a flesh and blood hominid.

    The Muslims and the Yahudi ought to Kiss and make up, don't you think ?

  35. Which faith is so Weak in Malaysia , that its followers cringe at every whiff of Murtad-brand perfume, and shudder to imagine all the proselytisers lurking in the shadows ?

    Remember Harussani, the ex-Perak mufti who instigated a mob to blockade and threaten to burn down a church in Perak on the suspicion a mass conversion of Muslims was taking place ?

    It turned out to be nothing more dangerous than Commununion for a group of Christian Indian children.

    There's a funny side to this near-tragedy.
    Years ago, it would have been most unlikely to mistakenly identify a bunch of (Very) Dark-skinned Tamil kids for Malays.
    Nowadays, well, the Malays seem to have grown a dusky complexion....and such mistaken identities may be increasingly likely.....must be Global Warming at work..

    1. Harusanni was not punished for that instigation. He passed the buck to some woman's sms message.

  36. In truth I am what you would call a "Born Again Christian". I am enthusiastically involved in spreading the Word of Jesus Christ.

    My experience is there are plenty of Muslim Malays who are thirsty, hungry and ready for the good news of the Lord's message. But we live in Malaysia, and very aware what is forbidden by the laws of the country.
    As a person right in the middle of Evangelical activities, I can categorily say there has not been any attempt by the Church to convert Muslim Malays to Christianity.
    If a person wishes to learn more of the Gospels, we can never simply refuse them. That would be against the teachings of Christ.

    But if the person is a Muslim, we will gently let them know there are readily available information which they can privately access, including on the Internet. The Church and its facilities cannot be involved in any activities relating to Muslims. That is a strict rule which we follow.
    Let us be very clear about that.

  37. Sir, you reply is confusing to me.
    What do you mean "Read as if they were leaving messages for their friends"?

  38. I personally take this Allah episode in a positive way. If the government has not banned the word in the first place, all this flurry of discussion from a few years back, would not have occurred. Although some feathers have been ruffled, most of us should gain some insight and wisdom out of this. In fact, I should be able to write a thesis on this issue. My personal take from some angles is as follows:-
    I could understand the rationale of the Islamic authorities to ban the word to “protect” their adherents but they have not studied nor weigh the far-reaching implications before doing so. Firstly, it is near impossible to ban a word which has been in use by others for a long time. Also, what about the other slight variations of the word such as Alah, Ala, etc which phonetically, almost sound the same. So, when some folks exclaim “alaaah” when making a mistake, would they be hauled up and charged? Could they plead for different spelling as a defense?
    From the Christians’ point of view, they are resisting the ban on account of Malay speaking Christians in East Malaysia. As far as I know, no Non-Malay speaking Christians would use Allah in their worship. I am very sure the Church has used diplomatic means to resolve the issue but when some Indonesian and Iban Bibles and CD’s were confiscated and the Herald was banned from publishing, the Church has no choice but to go to the courts. And no judge worth his/her law education would uphold the ban as the case is indefensible. That could be the reason why the appeal is left hanging.
    Further, if the Church were to accept the ban, notwithstanding the intensive work to revise all the Bibles and to explain to the East Malaysian Christians to stop using the word, what would prevent more words to be banned? If the Islamic authorities do not want the Christians to use the word, they should discuss and negotiate rather than bulldoze through the ban. They could offer to replace all the existing Bibles and other worship materials. And then allow a generation or two for the older Christians to get used to the new agreed term for Allah.
    Meanwhile, the Islamic bodies should explain to their adherents the differences in their Allah and the Christian Allah who is a “3-in-1” God, etc, etc. And the Christians could take the opportunity to pass on the message of salvation through grace rather than works and explain that their “3-in-1” is not like nescafe with different elements of coffee, milk and sugar but also only One as in God, His Word (Jesus) and His Holy Spirit, like in water having 3 different states of liquid, steam and ice, blah, blah, blah…
    And all’s well should end well….until some Arab or Indonesian Christians come visiting and worship in our churches…and all hell would break loose all over again. Adam.

    1. Anon,
      Sorry, I don't agree with your assessment. It's more political than spiritual. I am beginning to suspect why Muhammad wanna link Islam to Judeo-Christian. Look how come all of the prophets are jews except for 1. That's Ismail. Till today, the muslims can't determine which son was to be sacrificed. No single name mention. Plus, it's not on the chronological order.......From the beginning till the......
      Shit! sorry, I hate to go into this because it'll never end. I still feel that folks such as kaytee should stay his arse out of this. Kaytee might end up like Salman Rusdie


      Lets refresh kaytee memory on the book salman wrote


      I am worried about you! What if Iran were to issue you a fatwa.....then how

    2. See even PAS folks also split


      Have you read about what Al Kamil did after his prior meeting with Francis of Assisi?

      Guys & Gals,
      I say hold your position! Just as the romans do

    3. Well, looes74, you should know that Muslims claim that Islam is a complete way of life which would include politics, spiritual, social and what-not...

      I agree with you that there will be no end to this discussion if we go on like this. That is why we have to accept to each his own as long as the actions of others do not affect us negatively.

      Unfortunately, Islam as practised in Malaysia does affect not only the Non-Muslims but also Muslims of different sects. They cannot even agree among their own adherents too.

      As for Kaytee, let him write what he pleases, even taboo subjects. We may not always agree with him but he can really write.

      Keep it up, Kaytee. Cheers. Adam.

    4. Hahaha...The last bit was funny. Well written. See KT, that's how you it. Almost perfect! Not skewed at all.

    5. ,


      It would appear that a great

      deal of the melayunised bible is

      running on a translation that does

      not match the concept in the Koran.

      If paul and his ilk can create a 3-in-1

      god [ the Nescafe model] , what is

      there to prevent the RCC later to create

      a 99-in-1 god [ I call this

      the Pharmaton model!] ?

      I had mentioned elsewhere that Islam stands on

      logical ground provided one is equipped with

      the tools to unlock the mystery of

      god's creation.

      The translation for holy ghost in

      the melayu bible is 'roh yang suci'.

      See how the rcc has used the Pharmaton model

      to create a new thingy!

      In Islam Ruh is something ethereal , part of the self

      that defines a man[or woman] .

      It resides in the

      corpus of the man and leaves the body

      when the man dies.

      Scientists in France using this definition has

      embarked on a study to prove this concept.

      A dying man is weighed using super accurate

      atomic weighing machine just before he dies.

      And after he has died , he is weighed


      This experiment is repeated so that

      it can withstand the rigours of scientific

      examination. And Roh is scientifically discovered.

      It is represented by the

      difference in mass of the living and the dead.

      At this point I submit that a proper translation

      of holy ghost is a ' pontianak/hantu bersih' or

      rcc is free to use the 20 odd names of hantus in the

      melayu folklore!

      Coming back to the mass of the ruh ,

      and applying this idea one step further,

      we can apply Einstein Formula.

      E=mass x the square of the speed of light,

      where E is energy.And ruh is the Energy in us!


      The rcc can sell anything to the Indonesians .

      They are gullible and

      looks like that it wanted to export its success

      in mental indoctrination to the melayus in bolehland!

      See this- church [the rcc ] has always been

      manipulative, deceptive and

      involved in intrigues in the UK and maybe

      in other parts of the world

      -probably Africa. The movies ' Elizabeth 1 '

      and 'Elizabeth 11' are a

      must see for all to understand the deception

      practised by the catholic church! Unfortunately

      we do not have a Walsingham to sort out the

      erring catholics

      There are christians who have rejected the

      the '3-in-1 ' god and take Isa as prophets .

      They are the Unitarians and they are all over the

      world. There are also followers of Isa using the

      the teachings from

      the time when he was alive

      [and they take Allah as One god and Isa

      his rightful prophet]

      in the Middle East . These are called in the Koran

      as people of the book. The Indons misguidedly stretched

      this definition of People of The Book

      to the Roman Catholics which resulted in some

      misunderstandings as raised in the 'nutgraph' .

      [ Read comment of hanana abdulla thereat on this issue]

      It is interesting that Looes was

      debating why Islam is linked

      by history to Isa and other Abrahammaic faith.

      FYI All the major religions came from Jerusalem and the

      nearby areas -Mecca.

      What a rightful thinking person should

      ask is, " why does the pope

      in Rome, a few thousand miles away out of the blue

      becomes an authority on religion brought

      by Isa in Jerusalem? "

      With that parting shot I hope Adam and Looes

      can start on a journey of discovery of their Allah.

      khong khek khuat


    6. KKK,
      As usual, your comment comes "fast and furious" but not necessary serious. Like you say, life is a journey of discovery, even when I am in my 60's.

      Btw, one word catches my eye... Pharmaton. Looks like you are also taking it? This all-in-one pill is really good for keeping illnesses away. I have been taking it for the last 30 years and I hardly fall sick all these years. That could be why you do not need the blue pill to maintain your nick. Regards, Adam.

  39. thanks for your concerns my dear friend wakakaka

  40. Perhaps Kt wishes to end his miserable life.