Wednesday, August 27, 2014

Wànsuì wànwànsuì

I am not sure where the current constitutional crisis in Selangor is going, but at least let's not mince words, that there is in fact a constitutional crisis.



In more than one way the royal person of HRH Sultan of Selangor has been and is involved, directly or indirectly.

I personally see the Selangor crisis as far more complicated and even severe than the 2008 Perak constitutional crisis involving Allahyarham Raja Azlan Shah. Then, debatable as the involvement of Allahyarham Raja Azlan Shah had been and still would be, at least it could be said he had indisputable numbers in his favour.

According to quite a few constitutional law experts, HRH Sultan of Selangor has gone beyond his constitutional powers and privileges in demanding for more than one name for the Selangor MB post.

They asserted HRH can't do that as he must approve the person who commands the majority of the state assembly as the MB, in exactly the same way DYMM SPB Agong must (had to) approve various PMs from Tunku to Razak to Hussein Onn to Dr Mahathir to ... ooops (wakakaka) ... AAB to Najib - no if's no but's, full stop.

Note the term 'must approve' which means HRH has no leeway ...

... unless the opposition or police can prove to him that the person proposed by the majority party is not qualified due to mental, medical or legal grounds such as, examples, ...

... known to be suffering from severe mental depression (eg. for fear of the Chinese taking over Malaysia, wakakaka), has brain cancer (quite unlikely as many politicians have no brain, wakakaka) or serious heart disease (too much santan? wakakaka), is or will be (or perhaps even has been) a bankrupt or has major debt issues (by several millions, wakakaka), is currently facing a possible criminal conviction (eg. has been accused of statutory rape or facing charges of biting a policeman, wakakaka) and ...

... demonstrated lamentable biadap-ish anti-royalty acts like what former UMNO MPs Affifudin Omar and Wan Hanafiah Wan Mat Saman did in 1992, likely with the imprimatur given by UMNO leaders, wakakaka.

But the job of scrutinising the MB-candidate would be that of the police and also an alert opposition. Thus far, no such adverse report has been made by the police or even BN against Dr Wan Azizah - BN's generalised opposition against her or some PAS members' objection to a woman being MB have been either opposition or shameful misogynistic prejudices and thus cannot be considered objective and substantial evidence.

The problem is that of the Malaysian Constitution which makes our rulers, alas, only constitutional monarchs, and also our Westminster-style democracy and parliamentary system.

One blunt bludgeoning bulldozing solution would be to dismantle or rewrite the Constitution which after all had already been amended zillions of time in the last 30 years or so, especially from 1981 to 2003, wakakaka, and to then make our rulers absolute monarchs.

But what will happen then to federalism and the post of HM the Agong? And what will happen to the federal cabinet and UMNO, wakakaka? 

Another would be to throw away the Westminster parliamentary system (or what's left of it, as RSN Rayer would say, wakakaka) and adopt, for example, the Soekarno-Suharto era system of 'kebijaksaan bapak president (atau panglima tertentu)', wakakaka.

third solution would be considered seditious though it may appeal to those who admire the ayatollahs. And mark my word, it will then be actually the Chinese (most of them anyway, and not General Zulkifeli Mohd Zin's extracurricular pomposity) who will defend the Malaysian (not just Malay) rulers against Middle-Eastern Islamic republicanism.

Daulat Tuanku - Wú huáng wànsuì, wànsuì, wànwànsuì 吾皇萬歲,萬歲,萬萬歲.



Do you have any proposed solutions to what I see as an impasse in the approval of a new MB for Selangor?

71 comments:

  1. You baca n faham dulu undang2 tubuh negeri Selangor where does it say that the Ruler Must............

    ReplyDelete
  2. We tend to forget that this situation started with PKR. Although you mentioned that Khaild's response is not becoming of party politics and normal decorum nor following Westminster's model. In the end, he proved us wrong by resigning which draws no positive comments. We also forget that we bend the Westminster decorum numerous of times. In the UK, parliamentarians would have stepped down for lesser infringements like "bocor" remarks or calling other esteem members of parliament "bastard."

    So in Malaysia, we are far from reality.

    Now we turn to HRH to say that he should not impose his views. The state constitution allows him to "appoint" whoever he wants, in view of the voters, the party/s with the majority and to the best interest of the state. However, in Malaysia unlike Westminister, religion of the state plays a role. No, this is not in the constitution per say (unless that HRH is the head of Islam etc) but what is in normal "convention". It is obvious that Wan Azizah although capable to perform every normal duty of an MB may be not able to fulfill certain religious functions as a woman. By "convention", the MB is muslim, malay and preferably male.

    The point made is a simple event like praying in the mosque. It is obvious that by religious decorum, she cannot sit beside HRH in the mosque for Friday prayers as per the practices of the religion (unless PKR wants to question religion).

    Aisehman, this has nothing to do with the constitution like the normal "convention" that the MB should be born in Selangor and anak jati (which was first highlighted by a comment in your blog which you subsequently asked RPK in his blog).

    But the interesting part in all this, where is DAP? We know where PKR & PAS stands, but why DAP so kecut? Why don't they comment on these "conventions" and rebut? HRH has shown enough grace and respect to have a woman speaker of the house but aren't PRK & DAP trying to shove the envelope too far, to the point of being in one's face?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. more than one legal expert don't agree with your views. In fact back in 2008 (posted somewhere in my blog, around mid 2008), when Khalid Ibrahim avoided answering why he didn't forward Teresa Kok's name to HRH as the deputy MB, and palace people talked about Teresa being a non-Muslim (not so much a woman) thus unable to "advise" HRH on Islamic matters, Dr Bari stated that HRH himself is THE head of Islam in Selangor and did NOT require the MB to advise him as HRH already had (still do) the state religious council for that role.

      Then state secretary Muhammad Munir claimed that the deputy MB should ideally be a Malay (not so much a man) to assist the MB in Islamic and cultural duties. But Dr Abdul Aziz Bari pordah-ed that argument.

      Dr Bari said: “The Sultan of Selangor does not need the menteri besar or the deputy menteri besar in matters pertaining to religion and Malay custom.”

      According to the Dr, the sultan, as the head of Islamic matters and the Malay adat, was (still is) in fact THE PERSON in charge of such matters in the state, and not the MB or his deputy.

      He said: “Matters cited by the palace are entirely within the sultan's jurisdiction. As the sultan may act on his own discretion on these matters, the constitution provides that a council may be appointed to assist him. This is what is commonly known as religious councils or majlis agama, which looks after the religious department or the jabatan agama. In the other four states and federal territories, the Agong will have the same establishment.”

      Dr Bari also commented that a prolonged delay in the appointment of a deputy MB was unnecessary and might even be unconstitutional.

      But when Khalid Ibrahim was asked whether the appointment of a Deputy MB had been postponed or scrapped altogether, he as usual side-stepped the issue by stating the need to explain the matter (what?) properly to the people (who?), and that he would do this after the executive councillors had been sworn-in (why?).

      But had he ever done that?

      That was one of Khalid Ibrahim's greatest shames which over the last five years we have come to realize even more, with increased regrets.

      In the end, Teresa Kok was NOT appointed as deputy MB in the previous DUN session, enabling Khalid Ibrahim to live happily ever after ... well, until now, wakakaka.

      Delete
    2. No, you are not wrong in general. However, again we rely on one source on the interpretation of law, Dr. Bari who we think is one of the saner ones around. However, our argument is the constitution vs "convention".

      You have skipped the part about Wan Azizah praying side by side with HRH. By muslim convention (law?) a women is segregated in public prayers.

      Then you have glossed the fact that if the MB becomes in-capitated, his deputy takes his role. So if anything happens to Khalid or if he is on leave, Theresa is suppose to advise HRH on Islamic affairs?

      Third, are you saying that HRH was directly involved in the seizure of the Alkitab's? Many people including bloggers seems to point that one reason why Khalid had to step down was his nonplus's attitude towards the seizures. This means that for political reasons, one day its Khaild's fault and on another, the buck stops at HRH. Then why doesn't DAP say this in public?

      Our major grouse is one or two wrongs cannot make it right. Malaysians acknowledged in the last two elections that all is not well but neither do they expect to be fed the same dung in another name, or worst.

      Thankfully another branch of government, the monarchy is there is safe guard the interest of the people whether its interpreted as narrow or otherwise. Malaysians may appreciate the monarchs better if they understand what a true theocratic state may look like if the present crowd have their way as seen in today's trouble regions.

      You may greatly disagree with this blogger's views (you called him a Chinese fascist) but at least its a fresh perspective of who, the man Khalid may really be or not be:

      http://shuzheng.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/why-khalid-must-press-on/

      wakakakaka



      Delete
    3. your arguments have been insistent on certain parameters of your pre-set perceptions, for example, that a MB must pray besides HRH and thus would not be possible if a woman is the MB. Where does it say that the woman MB cannot pray with HRH in the mosque but in a separate section?

      What is convention but normal practice which as we know, changes with time, circumstances and requirements. It was convention that we walked around barefooted but obviously decades ago and a practice no longer conventional today. It was also convention that we travelled from, say, Bagan to Bukit Mertajam by bullock cart, but not so today - why would we when today's motorised transport of various kind better facilitate such travel.

      Re advice on religious affairs HRH has his religious council so what's the issue with Teresa Kok standing in for an absent Khalid - it was precisely this point that Dr Bari had disabused the claim by then state secretary Muhammad Munir. You have totally ignored this (as written above). The real issue as we suspected was that Teresa was a woman, Chinese and also a Christian (the 3 C's known as Chabor, Chinese and Christian). It was said that a certain former solar-powered PAS ADUN was strongly against her nomination. KI studiously avoided the issue like the plague as he studiously avoided coming to Eli Wong's defence when she was harassed in her private affairs.

      Re prayers, HRH and a woman MB can still pray in the same mosque together though in separate rooms. This could become the new convention!

      And where was it that I had written or said HRH was directly involved in the seizure of the Alkitab's? Please do NOT put words in my mouth or post.

      That KI chose not to pursue the alKitab issue was his choice as a MB, as was his respective choice in not defending Eli Wong and in not forwarding Teresa Kok's name to HRH as a deputy MB - the Selangoreans have judged him, no doubt differently depending on their own interests. But it would not be wrong to say he didn't act in accordance with Pakatan policies.

      The principal issue currently, as pointed out by many, is not about a theocratic state in place of the monarchy, but rather the need to remember that the Malaysian monarchy is a constitutional system, not an absolute one with powers and prerogatives to marginalize the people's voice.

      But as I have posted, if those who feel that the monarch should be absolute then let's change the Constitution, instead of making a mockery of it by ignoring what is laid down.

      As for the blogger's opinion of KI as the MB, we all know who the blogger is and where he is coming from. We also know KI as The Royal MB, a man who is devoted totally to HRH (and no one can deny him this), but alas, thinking he being the Royal MB, he has ignored the people's needs (eg. Cheras tollgate saga), process of democracy and Westminster principles (who nominated him to be MB, yet having the brazen effrontery to say there was no such thing as a Pakatan government) and his erstwhile fellow Pakatan ADUNs (no consultation on some major projects) and party leadership (refusing to step down when told to even after he was expelled - this is both political convention as well as majority rule).

      Please read my post on him titled "The man who would be king" - http://ktemoc.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/the-man-who-would-be-king.html:

      Delete
    4. We would be more than happy to see a greater role of women in Malaysian society especially in politics and religion.. If it was not for this most ingenious or convoluted way for PKR to handle party politics (because of AA) or Wan Azizah, it could have been a better day.

      No, your point is noted.

      The monarchy is not absolute but remains as an integral (we would not say just ceremonial) role in Malaysia. Many argue on a similar vein that the agong can now request for more names for PM. But our argument is that by "convention", since BN is a registered entity with a mutual agreement of it components that the head of UMNO automatically becomes PM with the exception of the UMNO crisis as agreed by the component parties of BN. PR isn't registered and with a formulated policy/agreement. There is no such thing in Westminster, no? But by inference since the winning party leader becomes PM.

      In a progressive and more liberal society, we would easily accept Teresa as deputy MB or even MB but by Malaysian decorum which falls on a more conservative side, its not ready to accept such a change.

      If there is misunderstanding, its Dr. Bari that says that HRH does not really need the MB to consult in Islamic matters. This means HRH hold absolute powers in terms of religion (Islam in this respect) in the State. True. Then Khalid is not negligent in his duties in regards to the seizures. But we must understand that as an unwritten rule, local bodies "have a mind of their own" outside the perusal of HRH or the MB. Therefore, in practice Dr. Bari is correct except in practice. However, HRH does consult with the MB before making a decision that will affect his subjects or a larger federal context.

      We shall not delve into Eli Wong's situation. There are too many conspiracy theories surrounding the situation in which one of them is that she was a number done on her by certain parties who sought to neutralized her like on Zaid.

      Khalid to the very end had hoped that Eli would take the right side of right or wrong. However, you and others may see otherwise. Whatever, what is apparent is her "silence" after her situation, therefore rendering another "voice" gone.

      Again, you more than the rest understand that the last putsch for a theocratic state is the monarchy whether constitutional or absolute, especially in our context.

      Nobody is negating or absolving Khalid's "sins" like Cheras but by your own admission, he see the world in "black or white" in old school fashion, thereby showing his allegiance to royalty. As the fascist blogger says, it may be refreshing because Khaild isn't the mold of some two-bit politician.

      In rebuttal, neither British parties will hold a "Kajang move" to remove one of their own. Its very un-Westminster. Wakakakaka

      PS. His HRH office has issued a letter to PKR in which it uses the word "sejajar dengan konvensi (convention) - para 2. Wakakakaka

      Delete
    5. one small observation to your long comment (thanks by the way, tough there are one or two small areas I have different opinions on but I won't go into them).

      My observation relates to the situation AFTER the revelation of an unsavoury intrusion into Eli Wong's personal affairs. I believe it happened generally independent of any PKR intrigues (I could of course be wrong here) and that the villain might have succumbed to financial inducements from outside PKR or even Pakatan.

      The unforgivable issue in Eli Wong's temporary tragic experience had been KI becoming chicken, showing he was a so-called leader who only looked "upwards" but not downwards to the needs of his subordinates - in the military he would be considered a lousy (non) leader but in the civilian corporate/business world his lack of real (people's) leadership had been forgiven perhaps due to his ability to make money, or as PSM put it, a regular Guthrie Towkay who was most unfriendly towards workers.

      Sadly his business acumen had been mistakenly interpreted as good leadership and probably the major reason for his failure as a Pakatan MB (though he did well as The Royal MB, one who always looks "upwards"). I don't believe there's anything 'refreshing' about such a person who should stay out of politics which warts and all is still about the business of serving the rakyat.

      Thus in this sense the blogger has been correct that KI isn't in the mold of the typical politician because as I had posted in "The man who would be king, "he just isn't one, full stop - he's just a CEO reporting to the major stakeholder.

      BUT and a big BUT it's not correct to say he's 'refreshing' because he's not a people's representative (more of a Guthrie Towkay or a Selangor Honcho). We saw how he ignored democratic political process and sadly, turned against his own party, coalition and the mandate of the people who had elected Pakatan into majority rule in Selangor, even unto declaring there's no such thing as a Pakatan government.

      Yesirree he had been lamentable in his behaviour, values and wakakaka memory (the immortal words of Dr M that 'melayu mudah lupa' come immediately to mind), hardly 'refreshing', a term of an equally lamentable spin by that anti-Pakatan blogger, wakakaka.

      Delete
    6. There is one interesting thing about PKR that doesn't happen very much in DAP, sometimes in PAS, never in UMNO and of course, sometimes in MCA.

      And all these are video tapes of the xxx nature and some not (like Khaild signing papers at his desk. Wakakakaka). It seems that PKR leaders only has a propensity to have a China doll tape, ice cream in the toilet and of course my lady in compromising photos, sleeping like a cat. (with the exception of big spender).

      It would be easy to blame UMNO for this. Or were they being used by PKR insiders like what happen to Zaid? For every Zaid there is a Kuli, Najib, Hisamuddin etc. So what is the big deal?

      Someone has learnt the dark arts from MCA.... wakakakaka.

      Some say me lady was too close to Khalid and had to be put in her place. And others say, the said gentleman was paid by insiders to flee to Indonesia. Aaah, the Russians can teach us a thing or two about honey traps. Wakakakaka.

      But some others like in .... can teach us about discretion and covering for others.... it seems there are no real friends in PKR if you have other proclivities. wakakakaka

      Delete
  3. Kaytee,the doctor had said umpteen times that Malays (all Malaysians yourself included) has very poor memories.He also has a prescription readily available for persons with this defect.

    It is a well known fact that Umno in the last few elections have their preferred candidates for MB'ship rejected by the state's ruler.So it is okay for Umno to get the fucking stick but not PKR or PR.

    The PR were screaming till their lungs burst in Perak.What is bad in Perak for PR,is good in Selangor for PR? I thought that Umno/BN were the only ones to practice two sets of laws? Now one has to just look at the PR political clowns acting like crybabies.No fucking shame?Hahaha,donkeys laughing at the mules.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A no brainer for a twisted argument!

      In the Perak case a very bad precedent was set, both by the royalty & the federal court. The verdict went against all fair & learned interpretations of the Federal Constitution!

      This precedent casted a long shadows in the legality of the FC, as it's a case rule - meaning all future court rulings would used it as a reference.

      The case was bad & worst still it sets the direction for future ruling, until it is repealed again in the federal court.

      Now, in the current Selangor case PR has no choice but to follow the guide line set by the Perak case, even though it is a bad choice.

      Remember, the rule of the federal court holds throughout M'sia, unless repealed. Otherwise PR would be fighting a lost cause even before doing anything. If they don't follow the ruling of the Perak debacle!

      So, engage yr grey matter before u shot. This is not yr usual jerking off affair!

      Come again - which donkey is laughing at which mule now???

      Delete
    2. The other guy not engaging his grey matter on this issue is RPK who recently said exactly the same thing....that PR is now asking for the exact opposite of what it had asked for in the Perak case, waxing lyrical in one whole cheong hei article, hentam-ing PR kau kau, with his usual Melayu chorus in attendance in the comment section pouring out ad nauseam their usual racist diarrhea and rant. On second thought....may be he DID engage his cunning grey cells....he KNOWS full well the faultiness of this 'logic' but since he's now in a spin&spin mode full time....well....enuf said

      Delete
    3. bruno, 'twas due to weak UMNO leadership at that time, namely AAB who was already under siege by you-know-who, wakakaka, thus he didn't put up much of a protest. Besides, AAB has been known to be deferential to the royals.

      In the Perlis case the debacle was complicated by a state UMNO leader who was also a member of the royal family, and apparently who instigated the change in the choice of MB, thus AAB being AAB gave way. Another HRH needed a clown in his court, wakakaka, and had his way, again because AAB was respectful of HRH.

      But it had these small victories that gave royalty the belief they have more than a constitutional role in selecting the state MB. It's not constitutional, hence my suggestion to amend the constitution to change the monarchs into absolute ones, wakakaka

      Delete
    4. Kaytee,
      Lets be fair. In the case of Perlis, Shahidan was clearly rejected by at least 8 aduns. They came with official letter and hence by convention Perlis ruler who was a descendant of Arab trader installed by Siam King had to accept the other candidate.
      Of course, you are right about Ganu King even though he is right in doing so. You see the pain of sultan who does do the right thing like what Sultan Idris II of Perak has done by first rejecting Ghazali Jawi, Tajol Rosli daddy as MB due to corruption.

      Kaytee,
      How about this? Appoint RPK as Royal MB for life. Case close

      Delete
  4. this situation is just like debating 'is the glass half empty or half full' issue. ulamaks (experts or specialists) even differ in the interpretation & practices of verses of quran, what more in the man-made law. this is not new. the verdict is coming soon since the parties concerned must fulfill the command by 3rd of sept. sabar & tunggu saja le!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Both PKR and DAP have already submitted one name and stated that's their one and final choice. If HRH ignores their candidate (PAS has submitted more than one name, wakakaka) then it'll be interesting to see what happens next.

      It is also interesting to note that PAS has its own internal problem over this same issue.

      Delete
    2. And you know why........PAS would be decimated in the next GE or even state election in selangor. PAS would be lucky if they can even keep 5

      Delete
  5. KT, the closet royalist???

    U have opined a few options & yet u intentionally (thus closet royalist) left out the big R!

    BTW, the final paragraph of that royal salutation of yrs has a different Cantonese interpretation if one would intone the last word of the calling in Cantonese & not in Mandarin.

    Would that land u in big trouble?

    Wakakaka..

    One more thing, yr usual tongkat addictors have somehow forgotten their label & turn anon!!!

    Surprise, surprise.

    Could it be they r royalist too & yet sensing there is a growing tide among their kindred for that big R & thus played chicken???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. .. which has been why I included the Chinese characters to negate any Canto pronounciations, wakakaka

      Delete
  6. The main issue here is mandates. Not convention. Selangoreans cast their votes to give a mandate to an Adun. Elected Aduns associate themselves with a party. Parties come together to form a ruling coalition with enough Aduns to form a government. The collation also elect one amongst them to be the MB. This is called having the mandate of the people to govern. If a person has the mandate of 30 Aduns out of 56, then this person indeed has the mandate of majority of the people through their representatives.
    If we want to follow convention, then we need to check the conventions of hundreds of years ago to know the original conventions of the 1st king of this land. Not just back to a few generations of rulers. The fact is that conventions changes with time. It does not stay still like a written text book. Election is all about mandates. Didn't you guys went to cast your votes to give your mandates to someone from some party from some coalition to represent you? If your mandates are already given, the system will eventually arrive at a name who commands the majority support of Aduns mandated by the electorate. Rejecting this name while slicing up this coalition by asking for separate nomination of more than 2(3) names is taking a step back. Why not take another step back to ask the 43 PR Aduns to each nominate 3 names separately since 2 Pas Adun does not share the view of Pas? That would give 129 choices to choose from if the convention is the more the merrier. Like going shopping. If mandates are to be disregarded, why not take yet a further step back and ask each voter who mandated a PR coalition candidate, that is you, to nominate 3 names each separately. That will give millions of choices to choose from. More is better. Sigh. Some people just love lots of choices just like Mr. Wansui Wansui Wanwansui from China who gets 3,000 concubines to choose from, enjoying his convention. I would be very confused with only 3.

    ReplyDelete
  7. It is not a constitutional crisis. It is a personal crisis.

    Khalid was sacked by PKR.

    HRH is wise. HRH does not want to rush. HRH bersabar dulu. Things are hot and hazy. There is no vote of no confidence. There is no SD. Khalid to be MB until things are cooler and clearer. I have to jaga hati rakyat. They are my subjects. They are important to me.

    Then the SD appeared, signed by 30 ADUN.

    Khalid resigns.

    HRH sees things are somewhat clearer now. However, in regard to the proposed new MB it is 28:28. O..O man, I have got a situation here. OK I see no wrong in Khalid. All negative things about him are all hearsay at this moment. I would hold Khalid’s resignation until I resolve the MB issue. Khalid to be a caretaker MB until a new MB is decided. HRH asks for more nominations for his consideration.

    From PKR there is only one nomination. From DAP there is no nomination. From PAS, perhaps, there are more than two names.

    OK, HRH will probably say to PKR and DAP - O..O.. since you did not follow my order, please don’t blame me. Thank you. You have my task easier.

    HRH will probably think that PR is in a turmoil now. To choose an MB from PAS will not resolve their internal problem. I will make it worse. PR must get their house in order first. Until then, Khalid you are still my caretaker MB.

    Daulat Tuanku. Daulat Tuanku. Daulat Tuanku.

    So KT might be right, after all.

    - hasan

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. wakakaka - one correction to your scenario - DAP did put a name forward, Dr Wan.

      In the end HRH will see that 28 plus Saari Sungib and Hasnul Baharuddin (total 30) back Dr Wan while 13 PAS submit two names. Even if the two named PAS ADUN return to a PAS stand, it'll still be 28 versus 15 - the decision for HRH is clear but will he make it?

      Delete
    2. KT, you are right again.

      But I am reading the MB issue in a wider context that the 56 ADUNS are the legal representatives of the rakyats. So, HRH should see the issue from a larger scope rather than at PR ADUNS only. Hence, 28:28.

      HRH can also dissolve the assembly and go back to the rakyat again. But to waste RM50.0 million is not Islamic. Banyak lagi orang yang tak berbumbung dan hanya makan sekali sehari.

      As an example, to unnecessarily waste RM2.0 million for the Kajang Move is certainly not Islamic. Dan ini lah padahnya. Hidup hanya dalam hayalan dan menyusahkan orang lain dan Sultan pula.

      Raja Haji Fisabilillah and his younger brother Raja Lumu will be smiling in their graves and would probably say... "Ayahanda berbangga kerana Anakanda sudah bertindak yang terbaik demi rakyat dan negeri". But RPK may not agree still... he may have other ideas.

      Finally, religiously speaking and politics aside, HRH is not wrong if he decides that he is more comfortable to work with a male MB rather than a female MB. I am not saying that females are incapable but that is the religion. That is my guide. What more can I say?

      - hasan

      Delete
    3. hasan, I don't disagree with your views as they reflect Malay feelings, perceptions and thoughts, which I as a non-Malay can only guess at. And I thank you for sharing it with me and everyone, especially the non-Malays, reading my post. Maybe with time we can be more sensitive and accommodating with intrinsic (not politicized or staged, wakakaka) Malay feelings.

      On a personal note I was against the Kajang Move and as everyone who visit my blog regularly would know, I criticized not only the proponents of that PKR manoeuvre (for its intra party interests or of someone's interests) but also a DAP bloke who supported it - he goes by the name of "the-sky-is-falling-down Chicken Little" ... ooops .... I mean Tony Pua wakakaka.

      I have also provided my reasons to an ardent PKR supporter, HY, for NOT supporting Dr Wan - won't repeat those reasons here.

      However, one issue stands out like the proverbial, or as our Indon neighbours would say, yang sangat menonjol (wakakaka), is the worrying issue of equal opportunities for females - maybe one day we can discuss this in another post

      Delete
    4. "...the MB issue in a wider context that the 56 ADUNS are the legal representatives of the rakyats. " ?

      you mean the 12 Umno aduns also have a voice to vote who becomes the MB, even if they are in the opposition ? wakakaka. This type of calculation...the Chinese labelled as "kerling sou" - Keling Calculation ( no offence meant to Indians ! merely a direct translation )...alamak ....like one blogger likes to declare.." banyak cantik" !!

      Delete
    5. "As one commentator noted: “The Sultan is perhaps reluctant to consider Dr Wan Azizah because he doesn’t want his mentri besar to have her spouse in jail. It may be embarrassing for him.”" Baradan Kuppusamy, The Star.

      Double wakakakaka....

      So Hasan, rightly so based on convention and decorum in Islam (as practiced in Malaysia) and the adat istiadat raja-raja, a women may pose a difficulty especially in formal functions involving religious practices.

      Its definite that many of us have a more liberal view in regards to the role of women in leadership but we forget that even in America after centuries of democracy, the question posed is still, "are Americans ready for a women president" which Clinton will test in the coming elections.

      Delete
    6. Actually yes, the 12 UMNO ADUNS have a say in who should be MB...Opposition or not is does not come into it, but they are 12/56, so their voice cannot be the determining one.

      Nothing to stop an "Independent" MB, as long as the majority agree to it, though it would be very unusual if the majority cannot come up with a choice from one of their own.

      Delete
    7. Let's talk about this "kerling sou".

      The sultan wants more than two names from each of the component party of PR. This is in effect negating the guiding principle of democratic constitutional monarchy system!!

      1st - if the 'power to be' couldnt recognize that PR as a political pack that can vote with single decision, & thus come up with such a 'request', then he should ONLY consider the selection of the MB from the individually elected party with the largest assembly count - ie PAS & DAP.

      Umno & PKR r irrelevant, since they dont have the required numbers.

      Now, PAS & DAP share the same number of 15, making it a 'hung' situation in naming MB candidate.

      But, then DAP has the support of PKR's 13, making it with 28. This might be the same as PAS (15+12+1).

      However, in naming Kak Wan, DAP's pack has 30, while PAS’s has 12+1 ( that’s without counting the fact that Kak Wan’s name would ALSO be in the PAS’s list).

      Unless umno also put its members behind the candidacy of Kak Wan, Azmin & whoever, umno's number is again irrelevant.

      So, simple arithmetic in all combinations, Kak Wan is the name with THE MOST nomination.

      So, who commands the largest support for the MB candidacy, AGAIN???

      Whatever, those royalists, misogynists & blur-sotongs want to twist & spin, they MUST uphold the guiding principle of selecting the elected member with the most support. This is what every M'sian goes to the poll for, during every GE.

      Not unless those political scums play to be vainglorious about their feudal past with an Islamic tint of treating woman as 2nd class play pet. But by that, they r standing on their head, rather on their feet (if u know what I meant)!

      They WONT get any supports from the enlighten masses. Along the way this tide would bring down an institute that has been indoctrinated, through mis-information, to be a key representative of their race.

      If that happens, that would be one of the best thing coming out of this Kajang move, that no one has ever envisaged.

      Delete
    8. Why cibai Hasan doing around messing with Selangor politics? Lest he is fucking brunei immigrant to Sabah. I have doubts if he really understand royalties at all even if he met them. Because he is a fucking sabahan. Sorry, he is a bastard fucking FAKE sabahan

      Hisham Rais, my preferred sifu as compared with that cibai royalist called RPK has spelled out very clearly

      http://tukartiub.blogspot.jp/2014/08/berita-dari-sabah.html

      Guys and Gals,
      Kindly stick to Hisham Rais instead of RPK.

      RPK,
      Au revoir l ancien regime

      Delete
    9. Anon 9.48... why not?

      HRH is not comfortable with a female MB. Somebody with a hijab should already know that. Why make it difficult for the Sultan?

      As at today there is no constitutional crisis whatsoever! It is PR cirisis? Why drag the palace into this? Is it not PR responsibility to solve the problem, not shifting it to the Sultan?

      Now PR is adamant, still wants a female MB and hiding behind the constitution. OK fine... HRH does not want to waste the RM50.0 million. HRH goes back to the rakyat but via the 56 ADUNS for an indication which at present is 28:28. Ooolala... HRH goes back to PR and say resolve your internal issues first and come back to me with a solution and not a problem. Until you present me with a solution, Khalid would still be the MB to help me administer the state. What constitution or convention did the Sultan breach?

      PR yang bermasalah dan kemudian present it kepada Sultan untuk penyelesaian. BANYAK CANTIK..!!

      - hasan

      Delete
    10. KT, preachers will be out of work with your logical reasoning !

      Delete
    11. looes74 @11:49

      Thank you for the obscenity directed at me. I have suggested to you many times that we should meet up so that I can show you my salasilah and my identity. But until today you did not take up my offer.

      Let me tell you and all the readers that I am not from Sarawak, Sabah or Brunei. I am not a member of any political party. We should meet up looes! There is nothing to lose! I can guarantee that you will not end up in jail.

      BTW your moniker in Malay sounds like jamban... why don't you change it? Or is it in French? And I am just curious too, are you happen to be into toilet or pornography business?

      - hasan

      Delete
    12. I have allowed looes74's comments even though they reek with his usual obscenities, because I believe in egalitarianism where we must accommodate even vulgar (cibai) assholes like him, wakakaka.

      BTW, looes is the discarded suspected-son of the late Mr M Foot, an atheist while he unlike his suspected-dad is a Methodist (perhaps as a statement against his suspected-dad, wakakaka). Playing Sigmund Freud for a while, I believe his childhood trauma at being discarded by his atheist suspected-dad (wakakaka) has prejudiced him against atheists like me, wakakaka, hence you'll often read his comments condemning me for violating Rukun-negara No 1 and advocating for me to be burnt at the stake, wakakaka.

      But I love him and I suspect he may be a closeted member of the LGBT, yummy wakakaka/

      Delete
    13. Hey hey hey......but then again, you have indeed violated the first tenet of Rukun Negara by simply submitting you with this one killer punch question. The one late Karpal Singh did try to use

      Do you believe in God? Just answer Yes or No?

      P.S As engineers, we are extremely logically person and as christians, we are very straightforward.

      Dont believe in Jesus. You die in sin. Case close. Hahahahahaha!

      Hasan,
      Fuck you la! I would prefer CL Flamiaris and ktemoc to meet up in Aussie land. By the way, just ask around......My maternal grandfather was related to Sultan Idris II of Perak. hehehehehe.......not relative la. But in friendship. My maternal great granduncle visited Hospital Besar Ipoh nong nong time ago in a roll royce car. Guess who I am........Hahahahaha!

      Delete
    14. KT, are atheism and / or godless religions compatible with Rukun Negara ?

      Delete
    15. Your derogatory remarks and challenge wont have any impact on loooes, Hasan. All he wants is some attention. I find find him entertaining and harmless. Must admit that he has never cixxx me before. Just focus on his points, if any, when you response!

      Delete
    16. Anon of 8:18 pm, yes and no, no and yes, wakakaka.

      (1) Let's take the Indonesian Pancasila or 5 Precepts [which borrowed its title from Buddhism and which (the Indon Pancasila) our Rukun Negara was based on]. Its No 1 Sila is Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa yet one of its 5 officially accepted or permitted religions is ironically Buddhism (the source of the original Pancasila) which does not owe allegiance to any god, least of all an Almighty One God. The Indons says the No 1 Sila's Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa can also refer to "something" that promotes good or godliness as Buddhism does, therefore Buddhism is compatible to its state ideology of Pancasila, notwithstanding its No 1 Sila of Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa.

      In Malaysia, our No 1 Rukun is Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan - if one wants to be strictly literal to the very word of that No 1 Rukun, then all Buddhists in Malaysia are NOT complying with the Rukun Negara. But if we use the Indon model or interpretation, where Kepercayaan Kepada Tuhan can also refer to "something" that promotes good or godliness as Buddhism does, then Buddhism is compatible to our state ideology. On this argument, we could argue that atheism, so long as it does not promote or owe allegiance to evil, then it is complying with Rukun No 1.

      (2) when Ghazali Shafie evolved the Rukun Negara after the May 13 racial riots (Tun Razak as the PM naturally gets the credits), he borrowed the Indon Pancasila but without considering what Buddhists practiced, hardly surprising as not many realized that in Buddhism there is no belief in a God or Gods wakakaka. But nonetheless, the Indon model and interpretation of Belief in God should apply for Buddhists as well as atheists.

      (3) The Rukun negara is only a national philosophy or guidance and not law, so there is no compulsion to obey every part of it. Only looes74 who is a Methodist and a suspected son of an atheist believes it is law, wakakaka. You see, he wants to get at his suspected dad who abandoned him, wakakaka

      Delete
    17. KT,
      1 & 2. We're talking about Malaysia, where Tuhan can only mean God, instead of Indonesia. You're at no liberty to substitute Pancasila for Rukun Negara and conveniently say that Rukun No. 1 allows for Buddhists and even atheists so long as they promote "good or godliness" and do not "promote or owe allegiance to evil".
      (may be why some atheists are not willing or are afraid to admit disbelief in god !)

      3. Condemn looes74 as much as you think fit but please don't drag his dad into this !

      Delete
    18. okay, in which case then all Buddhists and atheists and Jainists in Malaysia are NOT aligned with Rukun No 1 - and why should atheists be afraid to admit disbelief in God when they are convinced there's no god?

      As for looes and his dad, that's something between him and me, wakakaka

      Delete
    19. No way those who disbelieve in god can conform with Rukun No. 1 !

      Unwillingness to admit disbelief could be fear of being obstracised at work place especially for government servants who are greatly outnumbered.

      Delete
    20. which means they have been silenced through fear of their peers but not fear of God = being bullied, intimidated

      Delete
    21. Can't agree with you more. KT !

      Delete
  8. There is the letter of the Constitution, and there is convention.
    Strictly speaking , the Sultan "has to" appoint the MB choice of the majority of the house.
    It is sufficient for PKR , DAP and PAS to formally submit their 1 name - nothing to stop them from all 3 of them submitting the same name.

    Did the Agong insist on BN submitting another name other than Najib for PM ?
    Did HRH insist on BN submitting another name other than Khir Toyol at the time for Selangor MB ?
    I don't think so.
    There is no such thing in the Constitution.

    If true that Pakatan acceded with the palace request for more names in 2008, then there is a big potential problem.

    HRH basically said, forget about how I handled BN. You Pakatan mongrels (my own term haha ) have to submit 3 names , because you are not a registered coalition..
    Call it precedence, convention , once you agree 1 time, you may be stuck with it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, Rocketman, this may start a precedence in constitutional #101 but isn't Kajang Satay also precedence set by PKR in Westminster #101.

      Hmmmm to think of it, PKR's name seems to appear somewhere in Perak #101 too...

      wakakakaka

      Delete
    2. There is actually nothing wrong about Kajang Move. If you cibais not happy, you can either vote for BN or Zaid or draw an elephant and spoil your vote. What cibai waste.......better to have it all the time. Then you will keep the elected officials on the toes.

      Not happy.....dont vote.....Not compulsory anyway. So what is your fucking problem

      Delete
    3. Rocketman,
      Pakatan did and technically it is wrong but then PR is really a motley bunch. It is the question who has the bigger dick. Right now, it is UMNO. Their Dicks are bigger and hence you see why those motherfuckers such as Hasan seldom dare to challenge UMNO. I do pity those sabahans. They are kenna screwed over and over and over. And they still say it to UMNO.......Please screw me more. Go and Ask Hasan la......

      Delete
  9. Azmin Ali - would right away solve most of HRH objections, right ?

    ReplyDelete
  10. "PR yang bermasalah dan kemudian present it kepada Sultan untuk penyelesaian. BANYAK CANTIK..!!"....hasan

    By all accounts, the majority ( PKR and DAP) had presented that one name....it had acted accordingly and if the constitution is followed, all the Sultan had to do is to to 'approve' the name given. Tak perlu apa apa penyelesaian lah. That's all that matters...the majority rules. Isn't this the convention ? Yang buat masalah ialah PAS and going by majority vote, PAS don't pass. But suddenly importance is given to the minority voice....Banyak Cantik kan ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. PKR+DAP+PAS = PR; YES? So, it is PR's problem. PR lah yang mesti membuat penyelesaian masalah mereka sebelum mempersembahkan keptusan mereka kepada Tuanku Sultan. Cantiknya muka PR nak suruh Tuanku Sultan membuat keputusan untuk menyelesaikan masalah dalaman PR dengan mengikut tulunjuk PKR atau DAP atauPAS. Lepas tu bila ada isu-isu atau hal-hal berbangkit atau tidak kepuasan hati rakyat, cepat lah PR akan menyalahkan Istana. Kemudian heboh kan propangda... PR tak bersalah kerana mengikut perlembagaan...convention... precedent... bla... bla.. Macam bagus aje! Tidak begitu? Ini bukan persoalan minority voice! Selagi PAS berada di dalam PR, this MB havoc is the creation of PR... It is a collective problem and responsibility of PKR, DAP and PAS.

      BTW please refer to dinobeano Aug 29 2014 @ 5.24am.. "HRH Sultan of Selangor has rights to be consulted, to encourage and to warn. So he does have discretion". That's really cantik kan? Kau nampak tak perbezaan?

      - hasan

      Delete
    2. I have disapproved/deleted one comment in response to above as I couldn't find ways to edit it, and where posting it will do me no good, wakakaka

      Delete
    3. KT, u r a truly a ball-less closet royalist!!!

      Learn some moderating skill from Ak47, to protect yr pet commentator!!!

      Delete
    4. improbable or awkward notion ought to be sanitized or flushed -:)

      Delete
    5. Anon 1.07... thanks for the complement. wakakaka

      - hasan

      Delete
    6. Let's assume BN is in power and have given a name to the Sultan. But MCA disagreed to the name, only MIC agreed with Umno.....of course all based on the fantasy that Umno is not the bullying taiko sole-power it has always been lah, wakakaka. So where's the problem ? why need to hand over this so-called problem to be resolved, since the majority voice ( Umno + MIC ) should override MCA, right ? Apa masalah untuk di selesaikan oleh our Sultan ? Just pass the name over and get it officially stamped, just like how Najib as PM was officially sanctioned by the Agong.

      First....this hasan fella used kerling sou, which he now conveniently side-stepped. Now he said PR unnecessarily create problem for the Sultan to resolve. If the majority have spoken and voted for the one person to rule over Selangor, then the right step, which have been taken, was to to hand over to the Palace according to procedure for the official stamp. Takde masalah pun. Nothing to resolve. All according to law and constitution....very legal.

      Delete
  11. One blogger inquired : "If an assemblymen with majority still can’t be sworn in as Menteri Besar, then why the need for election and democracy in this country? "

    And he seems to know why Azmin Ali was smart not to jump ship when Hadi invited him to join the gang for the Unity Govt with Umno.

    And...."Now, do you also understand why “Pakatan Rakyat” as a single legal entity will never be approved by the ROS?"

    For answers .... http://www.financetwitter.com/2014/08/now-do-you-understand-why-operation-kajang-was-absolutely-necessary.html

    ReplyDelete
  12. the mean machine7:28 am, August 29, 2014

    Hahahaha,you guys are all barking up the wrong tree.Looes74 is the man who lost his dentures in Haadyai screwing you know who?Hehehehehe.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hatyai........cheapskate........I thought Amsterdam better

      Delete
  13. Not only the palace, many others have a problem with Wan Azizah as MB.
    The reasons are varied and range from her gender to her lack of political acumen, to objections to Selangor becoming an Anwar family franchise.

    Probably the most workable proposal would be a 2008-Perak style MB and Exco.

    A progressive PAS Assemblyman (if one can be found, like Nizar) could be an acceptable MB to all sides - palace and Pakatan, with PKR Deputy.

    PAS may have to give up something in exchange - probably an Exco seat to PKR. PKR and DAP appointed as "Senior Exco".

    Not ideal, but better than a Constitutional crisis....what do you think ?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There isnt any except Saari Sungib and even PAS also never trust him Saari should join DAP and be appointed as MB for Selangor.

      Delete
  14. Just hand Selangor back for BN to administer.
    All solved !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kalai, have I commented before you're predictable? Wakakaka.

      But you know, you're actually right - now I leave my response for Pakatan supporters to analyse why I believe Kalai has been right, namely, that with BN in power, all the problems Pakatan is currently facing will disappear fast, wakakaka

      Delete
    2. Yeah....agreed that with BN (meaning UMNO) in power again in Selangor, all PR problems will be solved, EXCEPT that the rakyat will suffer further lah....there will be kidex 2, kidex 3 coming up soon, 3 billion will disappear overnight, toyol palaces bigger than the original one will sprout up...wa ka ka ka ka. In the end, the rakyat still prefers the smaller devil that is PR than that incorrigible big DEVIL we have known for 50 years

      Delete
    3. KT,

      U r compeletely WRONG about having BN in power, all the problems Pakatan is currently facing will disappear fast.

      The key point is strong leadership, which najib COULD offer NONE. In short, najib is no mamak material & republicanism is not in his 'tinted' bangsawan blood!

      Under the same situation, most likely he would play pak-lah & follow the wishes of the palace. & the recent MB appointments in NS & Trengganu proved that.

      KT gia, u r not thinking or r u using yr half anmoh sifu's reversed psychology to push yr crownish trace?

      Tsk.....Tsk....what a waste!!!!

      Delete
    4. aisehman, sayang lah, you're one of those who take things literally (face value) and cannot read between the lines or in the subtext, wakakaka

      Delete
    5. Face value????

      Now, I'm wakakaking......

      Do read this take by AK47;

      http://sakmongkol.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-selangor-mb-issue-what-is-to-be-done.html

      Especially the refernces to Tun Razak went before the Perak Sultan and insisted on Ghazali Jawi to be the MB + Ghafar Baba was asked to meet up the Yang DiPertuan Besar to insist on Isa Samad being made MB.

      In both cases. BN won, hands down over the palaces!

      Aint that what u implied for the current BN to take over & solve (wishfully) the Selangor impasses?

      Tsk.. tsk.. u ignored the part about;

      The person appearing before the Sultan must be of strong constitution. Two, the same name is submitted. The person appearing before the Sultan must be resolute. The person proposed the same name as endorsed by the majority.

      Belajarlah baik baik. Tak akan u buang masa menipu-guna crownish trace anda.

      Waiting for the datulship? They r going cheap nowaday!!!!

      Delete
    6. Wakakaking.... reading between the lines' here is one for u;

      http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/the-monarch-and-his-rakyat-working-in-tandem-to-overcome-the-selangor-mb-im

      This is a MUCH MUCH better version of a reversed psychological approach championed by yr half anmoh sifu.

      Delete
    7. wakakaka, you're too angry to even know what I meant, and I am not going to enlighten you - you need to work it out yourself.

      BTW, you're being childish talking about datukship - that's akin to the village bully using his fists when he runs out of words to debate, wakakaka

      Delete
  15. 1. pkr n dap must stand firm. it is pas prerogative to give 2, or 20 if they wish to.

    2. it is fine if want more name, 56 pun tak apa, bagi tak bagi nama is up to respective parties.

    3. i think azizah is fine, those who opine that azizah not a good candidate can always propose a next, at least pas suggest azmin, here i only read bla bla bla, tok kok aje pandai.

    4. azizah symbolise a victim live under a tyrannical govt. and i believe anwar is more than qualify to be a mb. he cant because of a shit govt cum selective prosecution.

    5. those who praise khalid or shit him in the past now semua dah tukar posisi, atas dah turun bawah, sisi pula dah berdiri. so whose criteria of good mb one shd follow? at least i dun see azizah give up or abandon her cause like those turncoat did.

    6. by reading the comments here, it seem one of the condition to be a mb must be good in religion, to avoid one become absolute power, interesting logic.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. HY... kau ini menulis macam style Kadir Jasin lah.

      I think your line of argument is a complete red herring. I would like PR to get its house in order first, then only mempersembahkan whatsoever kepada Tuanku Sultan untuk diperkenankan. That is the main issue. Lets focus on that.

      If PR cannot do so, then come up with the RM50.0 million to sponsor a fresh election. Why put it to the Tuanku Sultan in a spot who perhaps terpaksa bubarkan the state assembly and force the EC to vomit out the dirhams?

      Just to make someone of your choice an MB, the EC dah spent RM2.0 million and you sacked the MB. Because you sacked the MB, more than half of the ADUNS kena sacked pula! O my Gaji!

      Then you kata ini semua constitutional dan menurut konvensyen, precedent dan protokol. Dan yang best sekali you akan kata ini lah dia democracy. Tetapi yang sedihnya kau tak terfikir sedikit pun yang bahawasanya tindakan kau semua ini adalah sebenarnya abusing of the democracy and the constitution.

      Aku tak nak lah memberi pandangan dari aspek Islam nanti akan menimbulkan masalah lain dan kemudian kau mengatakan aku ini orang gua, orang kuno dan katak di bawah tempurung.

      Sekarang ini aku boleh ibaratkan kau seperti "Layang Layang Terputus Talinya"..... ku cuba dan terus mencuba... ?

      Tetapi HY, aku suka kau... dan walau kau cina dan aku melayu, namun walauapapun terjadi kita tetap kawan sejati. Aku suka lirik lagu kau itu.... berarak mendung kelabu... dan aku tetap aku..

      - hasan

      Delete
    2. kalu kata aku dah keterlaluan, minta maaf ya bro.

      i rarely comment from a religion perspective, n similar to kt, i respect yr view. however r u really sure azizah is not a preferred candidate because she is a woman, or there is other reason behind? my sindiran on tok kok is directed to kt, does he have someone better in mind? the problem with the mb post is the power that come along, and whether that person command the respect of his own party, and can he/she resist umno/bn shit, they can shower u with millions, khalid2, khalid3 will reemerge sooner or later. as soon as lks pegi jumpa confucius, u think lge/dap would not face the same fate? lets see.

      but that's politics, some chaos happen from time to time, as long as it doesnt bring forth violence, i think we shd tolerate, that is y i dun agree when u say pakatan must get it house in order, if that is the case, we just have another umno/bn.

      lastly. follow the majority wish then we dont have to spend 50 million. i don't see what is to argue over this point.

      jangan jadi terganggu, mari dengar lagu:

      Oh no not I. I will survive
      Oh as long as I know how to love
      I know I'll stay alive
      I've got all my life to live
      I've got all my love to give and I'll survive
      I will survive,
      I will survive!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBR2G-iI3-I&list=WL&index=39






      Delete
    3. "......as soon as lks pegi jumpa confucius, u think lge/dap would not face the same fate? "

      Macam PAS ke ? walau pun tok guru belum pun jumpa Allah, hanya sakit saja.......hadi, zudhi dan gang semua sudah showing positive signs of having the C disease, wakakaka

      Delete
  16. A VERY bad precedent has been set in the current Selangor MB impasses!

    'For then in whose name does the person rejected by majority of the assembly and the exco, rule?'

    The crownish curs out there would be please, while the founding father's democratic dream goes down the drain!!!

    ReplyDelete