Wednesday, February 25, 2015

Secularism can't wed religion

Another of Terence Netto's take on Pakatan, wakakaka, in his Malaysiakini article Pakatan's Mexican Standoff involving our dearest beloved PAS and DAP.


batu api looes74 brought this about

But before that perhaps it may be worthwhile taking a peep at Islamic PAS and its claim of Islamic values, for after all the Islamic party represents one of the main proponents (or opponents, wakakaka) in Netto's Mexican standoff.

Well, TMI has just reported PAS goes to war with itself ahead of party polls, a sort of fratricidal jihad or perhaps (a new term) a seppuku-jihad, either of Japanese -style self-disemboweling or of Arab style self-amputation of PAS' own organs?

TMI tells us: ..... the Islamist party finds itself imploding over infighting between rival factions – those in favour of cooperation with Pakatan Rakyat (PR) against those who are not. [...]

The infighting in the country’s largest opposition party has become so vicious that people now wonder if the trust they put in PAS in the 13th general election (GE13) in 2013 was misplaced. [...]

It is because the stakes are so high this time that the infighting between factions has sunk to new lows compared with previous elections.



There are now several Facebook accounts set up to smear rivals and name-calling, with the latest ploy being an audio recording purportedly of some leaders conspiring to overthrow PAS president Datuk Seri Abdul Hadi Awang.

The ulama assembly on February 21 reflected how dire things had become, as the gathering of normally reserved and mild-mannered ulama (Muslim scholars) descended into bouts of name-calling.


Hmmm, infighting between factions has sunk to new lows and Facebook accounts set up to smear rivals and name-calling - are these new images of PAS' Islamic values?

No doubt each faction would be claiming it has divine imprimatur to so act.

And, I wonder whether the divine imprimatur includes the right to bullshit a la Deucalion?


And me being a bloody suspicious person who believes in Cicero's Cui Bono, I have to admit I've been checking on the identities of vendors of yellow plastic tubs in Kelantan, which you may not realize can be utilized as extemporaneous sampans during unexpected divine-incurred floods, wakakaka.

So that's where our dear Islamic PAS (and its boast of Islamic values) is currently at, where its cybertroopers are smearing rivals' names and possessing other tactics described as 'new lows'.

Okay, returning to what I have wanted to blog about, namely Netto's Mexican standoff, I'm afraid Terence Netto has been wrong in his assessment of the PAS vs DAP stoush.

First of all, let's examine what's a Mexican standoff and how it would apply to Pakatan. Originally a Mexican standoff was a combative situation but with three opponents, each trying to kill the other two, but it's a screwed up situation where whoever shoots first, say No 1 at No 2, will be shot by the 3rd, wakakaka.



So visualize PAS shooting first (and killing) DAP, which will allow PKR to be in position to shoot at (and kill) PAS, wakakaka - PKR's wet dreams?

Okay, just play that deadly triangular musical chair for a while, and we'll all arrive at the same conclusion that whoever shoots second will be the sole man standing, so "... after you, Pak Haji. No no after you, Ah Hnia, aiyah Royal MB first lah ..." wakakaka, at least it breeds courtesy.

Now, while gnam gnam Pakatan has three component parties which might have rang true for such a standoff, alas, PAS and DAP may be in conflict but PKR has been acting 'dunno' (unless it's about seat allocation wakakaka), thus hardly a Mexican standoff in its original meaning.




But wait, all's not lost yet for Netto's term. A modern meaning to Mexican standoff refers to only two (not three) confrontational opponents, for example, PAS and DAP, wakakaka, but with both not having any significant advantage over the other ........ and even if there is, neither would admit it.

Additionally, Mexican standoff as understood in modern terms would deem both PAS and DAP having equal power, unlike UMNO and MCA, wakakaka, but what about Ah Jib Gor and Muhyiddin?

Okay, shall we agree this sounds like the Mexican standoff that Netto probably has in mind for the current PAS-DAP disagreement over the former's insistence in implementing hudud in Kelantan and also though to a lesser extent, the former rejection of DAP's proposal to have a 3rd tier election of local councils.

Being a DAP supporter (though not all the time, wakakaka) I am of course biased, believing PAS wants hudud implemented more as (I suspect) an intimidatory instrument to buttress its absolute authority among Muslims, while not wanting local elections because the party faithful will be deprived of non-elected appointments to local councils in urban areas and thus denied the fringe benefits of a ruling coalition.

Mind, though DAP promotes itself as a secular political party, I have to say I've not been impressed by a few individuals in DAP who have been perceived as unduly generous with exclamations of gratitude to the Almighty. I would urge those individuals to curtail, curb, nay, cancel proclamations like 'Praise the Lord' and 'Jesus loves us'.

Yes, don't piss me off with your non-secular exuberance or you won't be any different from PAS, what a thought, or even worse as you'll be hypocrites, wakakaka. So kindly keep your Hallelujah out of politics and your party affairs.



Next, the modern understanding of Mexican standoff is supposedly marked by both PAS and DAP being unable to advance their position to their respective advantage eg. retention of Pakatan as a still working and cooperative coalition but without or with (wakakaka) hudud implemented ...

... nor for both parties to withdraw without suffering any respective disadvantage eg. 'face' and political support. To wit, both are then supposedly f*** kau kau into an almost permanent stalemate, to both's respective disadvantage.



Now, on to Netto's assessment (and mine on his in brackets or parentheses) that:

... there is a certain symmetry to the arguments of both members which, on examination, suggests Pakatan won’t disintegrate.

Therein for Pakatan’s supporters lies the cheeriness of this cheerless situation.


(... known otherwise as Netto's Paradox, wakakaka)

The reason for optimism is not vacuous; the antagonists clearly don’t want to leave the opposition coalition on their own volition though one party is implacably opposed to the other on a fundamental issue.

I'll come to this point shortly.

Normally, divergences on matters of fundamental principle are pact-breaking or coalition-wrecking, but this gulf between two of three members on a core issue is apparently not enough to sunder Pakatan.


This is where I disagree because PAS will never ever rescind from its hudud intention while DAP will never ever accept PAS' wish to implement hudud, no matter how much PAS promises that it won't affect non-Muslims.

As we and aviators know from science, no two objects or two conflicting ideology can occupy the same space at the same time.


where ALL men and women are equal before the law

It's not just DAP but we non-Muslims are rejecting PAS as a political party because we have already witnessed gross interference in our non-Muslim lives in notorious cases such as proselytizing body snatching (though I suspect such act might have been more for inheritance under Islamic laws which would have benefited a Muslim sibling rather than, under civil laws, the non-Muslim widow) and ...

... proselytizing cradle-snatching (shame on those responsible), non-Muslim shops in KB forced to close on Friday noon for 2 hours despite the business being conducted wholly among only non-Muslims, motorcycle pillion riding prohibition for women (I am not even sure whether this applies only to Muslim sweeties? but then I don't buy PAS assurance syariah laws apply only to Muslims as described above), ...

... dress codes, unisex hair dressing salons, intrusions into non-Muslims public festivals and entertainment such as Valentine's Day, Thaipusam and wakakaka koe-tai, etc.

DAP can ignore our apprehensions to their peril a la 1999 - ask Lim Kit Siang and the children of the late Karpal Singh on how the nons could turn their collective wrath against even their DAP iconic heroes.



Netto's argument has pointed to the following as an example of how or why he has deemed that both PAS and DAP wish to remain in Pakatan:

... The latest iteration of this Mexican standoff came from Takiyuddin Hassan (right), PAS MP for Kota Baru and Permanent Chief Secretariat of the Kelatan Syariah Criminal Code who said:

“Pakatan does not belong to DAP, Pakatan does not have a leader, if (DAP) disagrees, it should leave Pakatan, why ask us to leave, and they cannot make us (PAS) leave.”


My dear Terence, it's more about 'face'. There is a social and moral stigma among us Malaysians on expulsion.

Yes sir, no one wants to be expelled like, say, Anwar from UMNO. I believe had Anwar resigned with dignity from UMNO as did Zaid Ibrahim, I would have been one of his strongest supporter, wakakaka. Instead he clung on until there were deep claw marks on the door sill of UMNO headquarters and even went to court in a futile attempt to retrieve his UMNO party position long after he had been kicked out.

There's undeniably benefit for both sides in staying on as a threesome team, where DAP will encourage Chinese voters to put their faith and trust in PAS (how to now?), and vice versa for PAS with Malay voters.

But alas, the relationship is far far FAR too toxic, and the ultimate loser will be the DAP if it continues to consort with PAS. So it's not the classic Mexican standoff where withdrawing from such a standoff will result in disadvantages.

DAP may suffer some tactical losses in disassociating itself from the Islamic party but will strategically strengthen itself among its traditional supporters from the smearing propaganda of BN.



Now, whether PAS or DAP leaves Pakatan is not important, and to a great extent depends on PKR, as to whom it will side to make the outcome 2 to 1.

Yes, I would dearly love to see PKR decides on this, wakakaka.

We know DAP has been playing bridesmaid to the PKR bride while no doubt PAS sees itself as the groom, wakakaka. But secularism cannot wed religion.



Whatever, whoever, whichever, it's not politically wise for DAP to work any longer with the Islamic party because if the DAP refuses to recognize the unfortunate situation it is currently in, it will suffer what Lim Kit Siang and Karpal Singh suffered in 1999.

MCA and Gerakan will be orgasmically rapt if DAP leaders choose to believe in a possible salvage ops for a threesome Pakatan with PAS still in the coalition.

To the Chinese voters no political personality is sacrosanct and so iconic that he or she will be immune to being made short shift of if the voters are annoyed with his or her political stand, policy, performance, conviction and attitude towards serving them.


54 comments:

  1. Would you mind to share your thoughts with us some DAP leaders that praise the lord. As a secular supporter, i would prefer religion keep out of politic. Thanks

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    1. we have to wait for looes74 to tell us - he's the one who knows, wakakaka

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  2. KT Apart from your writing I wonder where did you get those pictures?

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  3. In view of dwindling percentage of non-Muslim population, can the implementation of Hudud laws be stopped forever ?

    -huaren

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    1. not if the Muslims want it

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    2. How sure you are? Cibai........What make you think you can get away got violating the first tenet of rukun negara

      Can die now!!!!!!!

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    3. Ya loh.... no until they encounter the Taliban morons' pseudo-pius mis-guidances.

      Only then would they regret their totally foolishness that is been perpetuated by those closet gang-banged ulamas.

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    4. cibai looes, check what your Methodist Church has been doing in Fiji, wakakaka

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    5. KT 604

      In Ketantan, the Muslims want Hudud laws.

      -huaren

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    6. dear huaren, what's the percentage of kelantan muslims want the law? ada buat referendum?

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    7. kg lad 1245. . What matters is the power of the state assembly. . -huaren .

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    8. kelantan muslims want the law and the power of state assembly are two different things. if you say the latter, i have no issue. just like the gst la.

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    9. The electorates, who are mainly Muslims, have voted PAS, which is keen to implement Hudud laws, to form Kelantan staet government.

      -huaren

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    10. PAS did NOT go to the 2013 polls with hudud as one of its platforms - it was not Malays who voted for PAS but Chinese as well, so can we argue along the lines that even the Chinese wanted hudud?

      If PAS had announced hudud as one of its intentions prior to GE-13, it would have been interesting, though we'll never know until that's put to the test in the next round

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    11. KT, you are right, PAS did not "go to the 2013 polls with hudud as one of its platforms". But did it ever say it won't introduce hudud laws after GE13 ?

      The track record:
      "In Kelantan the (hudud) law is formally called the Syariah Criminal Code (11) Enactment 1993 and was passed on November 25, 1993. In Terengganu the Syariah Criminal Offences (Hudud and Qisas) Bill was passed on July 8, 2002." -ALIRAN

      A Chinese (non-Muslim) who voted for PAS in GE13 was not taking a 'risk' for hudud endorsement ? Now that PAS's position on hudud has become much clearer. Will Chinese continue to support PAS in GE14 ?

      -huaren

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    12. In fact after GE-12 in 2008 PAS proclaimed its objective was to foster a welfare state and did NOT mention hudud at all - in that it has been deceitful

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    13. Like it or not, I believe hudud's implementation is inevitable, sooner or later.

      -huaren

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    14. they will still be silent comes ge14. now the hot potato i.e. hudud. let's see what does the constitution of malaysia say:

      'Islamic offences only if authority has been given by Federal law – and under the Syariah Courts (Criminal Jurisdiction) Act 1963, which is a Federal law, Syariah Courts were given the jurisdiction to try Islamic offences over muslims only, but not if the offence is punishable by: (a) imprisonment of more than 3 years, (b) a fine exceeding RM5,000 or (c) whipping in excess of six lashes, or any combination thereof.[16]'

      the constitution will have to be amended first before 'anything else' or the wishlist gets implemented & enforced. for those who fear that the law will affect the non-muslims' rights, let's see also the contents of the 'medina charter' which many claimed to be the world's first constitution. among others;

      **The Jews of the Banu 'Awf are one community with the believers. To the Jews their religion and to the Muslims their religion. [This applies] to their clients and to themselves with the exception of anyone who has done wrong or committed treachery, for he harms only himself and his family.

      **Allah approves this Document.

      i don't understand what is the real concern of the puchong's wakil rakyat. let them table it which is to me only an academic exercise. wrt what's 'happening' in kelantan & trengganu, wa pu chi tao. (beh kong amik leow!)

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  4. The Chinese have the fortunate or unfortunate liberty to access the Chinese & English print media whether its for or against BN unlike rural Malays. Therefore, even in reading pro-BN media, one would be aware of the PAS-DAP spat on hudud and other relevant points that impinge on personal liberties.

    With DSAI no longer relevant (by virtue of incarceration and age), there is only one response for the Chinese, either to still go wholesale with DAP (or PR if an effectual leader takes over) or BN, where the latter is a lesser-evil. This was proven during the time of Tun M where the Chinese saw that he stood for stability, was a good man & leader. If the present BN leadership cannot proof likewise ("love AhJibGor, love BN" sloganeering) it may be a situation of low turn-out where neither is an option - between PAS and BN. Its apparent from the Teluk Intan by-election, not all of PAS were in favor of DAP's choice. Therefore, it would be taken that the Chinese may not reciprocate PAS candidates unlike the last election.

    In a not so perfect world and where politics can surprise one, the ideal match would actually be a UMNO & PKR tie-up. Since many PKR members have the UMNO roots and similar to Semangat 46, return to UMNO Baru. DSAI be forgiven, rewarded and non-Malays in PKR be given an option to carry on PKR Baru or join another party.

    This will leave DAP & PAS as the strongest opposition both in parliament and most state assemblies since they will no longer command a majority. Then as RPK keeps reminding us, they will carry PR's truth philosophy of agree to disagree. Wakakakaka

    PS. When a leader is desperate enough, any bride will do. Wakakakaka



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    1. re your "the ideal match would actually be a UMNO & PKR tie-up. Since many PKR members have the UMNO roots and similar to Semangat 46, return to UMNO Bar" it is my personal belief this will happen, a case of 'when' rather than 'if'

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    2. I remember you used to heavily excoriate Terence Netto many times for his slavish Anwarista-ism. Wakaka...how come he is now respectable ?

      ttp://ktemoc.blogspot.com/2012/06/revenge-of-effete-snob.html?m=1

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    3. when? sound like a christian that look forward the return of jesus. already more than 10 years waiting, now perhaps another 5 more years, ini delusion dah jadi our host punya religion, though he claim he is a atheist.

      msian in particular malay is one that make the ultimate decision, i dun mean the returning of jesus of course. the question is do we have enough malay that dun support both pas n umno? both party (unity or no unity) vote bank is the rural malay, what abt the urban malay? especially at a time the chinese as bogeyman would diminish sooner or later, a case of 'when' rather than 'if' wakaka.

      thus some pkr member can/might return to umno but there is enough urban malay to ensure the exist of a pkr (with or wo anwar), plus a dap with at least 50% malay being elected into their cec (a wetdream though wakaka), plus a third force (minus off those turncoat), that could form a government if work togather.

      we must continue to strive for a 2 party system, n kick out bn is the first step, no ifs ands or buts like what monsterball always said.

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    4. The 2nd coming of Jesua is eagerly awaited.
      The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah.

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    5. Anon of 6:23 pm, still disagreeing with Netto in this post

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    6. HY, how to have 2-Party system if you want to kick BN out? wakakaka

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    7. So BN becomes the 2nd ( opposition) party loh.....so simple mah....

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    8. You mean no other political parties would emerge when BN is dead? Anwar die can? But Najib or even Zaid mampus cannot?

      Cibai, so how now? Can you die now!

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    9. how about Parti Ayah Pin or the fave of cibai you, namely PCM or Parti Cinta Maaysia wakakaka. You cibai, suck on that

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  5. non-Muslim shops in Kuala Terenganu are already forced to close on Friday noon for 2 hours despite the business being conducted wholly among only non-Muslims, without Ktemoc and other Nons even raising a whimper.....what gives?

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    1. Jibby in control ma......semua pun bisa.........Hahahaha

      This is funny. It brought about by the Lupus in Din's blog

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmaxc4SlN7w

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    2. anon of 6.56 pm, I did miss that one

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  6. I , for one, will not forgive or forget the DAP's rude and uncouth behaviour towards the Malays before, during and after the May 13 , 1969 elections.
    There is no doubt the execrable behaviour contributed to the ignition of the tragedy.

    Just as with Ktemoc's standard, there is no forgiveness since there has been no apology forthcoming, even if 45 or 100 years pass.

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    1. what about Gerakan Party? According to Dr Kia's book on May 13, the Gerakan Party (not DAP) was the one which insulted the Malays in its victory rally

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    2. KT 7.00

      Nothing to do with Tunku's removal ?

      -huaren

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    3. TAR was stabbed in the back and ousted by TR

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    4. The May tragedy was part of the ouster plan. -huaren

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    5. may 13 & the ouster plan had their own origins.

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    6. Its obvious DAP still has an uphill battle to win even a limited amount of trust among the Malays.
      Gimmicks like putting up attractive , young female candidates won't do the trick.

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    7. agree with huaren that May 13 might have been orchestrated to bring down TAR

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    8. Cibai warrior cannot forgive ? who wants your cibai so-called 'forgiveness' ? I tell you who has the right not to forgive.......those Chinese families who lost their dear ones, they cannot ever forgive those evil Umno leaders who gathered up truck loads of their thugs all dressed up in silat black with head bands and carrying parangs, chanting their murderous chants as though in a trance but fully awake, eyes rolling wildly as though possessed by the devils, madly slashing innocent Chinese bystanders who were unfortunate enough to cross their paths that fateful day........a second before, they were just about their errands and business, the next second, they were hacked to the ground, their bare arms coming up to protect their heads in vain while these devils in black went on a slashing rampage, leaving a mayhem of butchered bodies and rivers of blood streaming down the tarmac roads.

      Cibai warrior.....know this.....it was the parents, wives, brothers, sisters, grandparents, aunts, uncles, children of these murdered innocents who CANNOT EVER forget and forgive those evil schemers and their murderous henchmen !! So STFU lah you cibai warrior....."warrior" konon nya......megamok je yang pandai lah after living a life of leaching off, alternatively begging and threatening for everything be given FOC ! Piigeee dah !

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  7. Kua Kia Soong's book is full of hearsay, innuendo , unsubstantiated facts. Mind you, he was, probably still is, a committed DAP supporter. So his "research" exonerating the DAP is largely self-serving.

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    1. Kua parted in acrimonious circumstances with DAP, especially Lim Kit Siang whom he condemned, wakakaka. His book was based on British classified papers on May 13 released after the determined period (I think it was 30 years) so those papers would hardly be considered as "hearsay, innuendo , unsubstantiated facts"

      Face it matey, there are some very ugly facts about May 13 - in the end the Chinese got the worst of it and the Malays triumphed, and thus here we are today

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    2. and penang lost its free port status.

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    3. gerakan and the alliance together with other east malaysia's political parties formed the coalition that is known today as barisan nasional in 1972. (i may be wrong) and penang lost its free port status in 1974 though in the same year the g.e. was held. (don't know which one happended first). yes, it was bn's time.

      but i believe the decision (port authority lies with the federal goverment) was to punish the electorate particularly the islanders (malays included) for not supporting the alliance in the 1969 g.e. if late chong eu stayed as an opposition, he would have been sent to 'college'. kelantan has been denied their share of oil royalty until today.

      if i were the pm, i would have given what's due to the state and let the people of kelantan see what will the government do with the money. we have seen what the goverment of pas did when they 'perintah' trengganu in 1999. how many pajeros did they purchase for use of mb office. (there were no alphards, x5s or x6s yet), and how many camrys with special number plates when the state of perak was chief-ministered by that pas bloke. and yet he got the cheek to comment on the sultan's bidding for www1.

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  8. PAS is right when it says its objective is not just about winning elections. Hudud is authored by God and not by Hadi or whosoever.

    When the time comes hudud shall be implemented even after those who are against it or for it are dead. It is just a matter of time.

    It does not matter whether secularism weds or does not wed religion.

    - hasan

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    1. very few Islamic nations have hudud

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    2. Once the Church owned about three-quarters of the European land. They dethroned the Church and the religion.

      Then, they came to Melaka, Johor, Riau, Lingga, Pahang. Terengganu, Selangor, Perak, Middle East, etc etc … and they dethroned the mosque and the religion too with their gunboat jingoism.

      They will keep on doing this until there is no religion. See what happened to the battered and tattered Muslim countries of today! Is it not because of their power and subversive elements?

      - hasan

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    3. Probably the only type of "religious" people who want political power (please take note I do not mean all the people of this religion but only "some" politicians of this religion, also please take note not all polticians of this religion) so as to dictate what other people believe because they really enjoy ruling over others. Just wonder if they really love god more or love being god! Hypocrite!!!

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    4. hasan, they dethroned the Church but not the religion which associated powers they appropriated for themselves the religious leadership (a la the Mandate of Heaven or God), thus they relegated the priesthood caste into a subordinate position. 'Twas those powers could then progress, but only minus the priesthood caste which thrived on fear and ignorance, and would thus subjugate the people to the dictates of their so-claimed holy proclamations and denial of intellectualism and knowledge in science, philosophy, humanitarism and ethics

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    5. KT, "they dethroned the Church".but not the religion .....".
      The separation of the state from religion took a long time.
      Isn't Christianity 600 plus years earlier than Islam ?
      Religion as a private affair might happen a very long time from now.

      -huaren

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    6. it's up to the Muslims but I would also keep an eye on some Christians, especially that cibai looes74, wakakaka

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    7. These type of "religious" fervour espoused by the likes of the majority of PAS members, and some Muslim Malays and those Christians with their Praise Be The Lord loud proclamation habit.....these are like severely infected species of a deep-seated virus where there's absolutely NO CURE ! ....the only hope is for their voices to be drowned by the moderates and in due time, for this specie to die off and their offspring, though similarly indoctrinated from young, be weaned off this disease while their minds are not so permanently set in concrete of pure shit.

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