Friday, March 04, 2011

Dr Mahathir - Malays, Mamaks & Malaysians

Much as Dr Mahathir was (perhaps still is) feared, despised and hated by many in the opposition camp (and even some in the BN side), much more than when he was a young Turk, I personally don’t; I have to admit I even admire him for three things he did. These were:

(a) His correct and timely de-fang-ing of a certain royalty who conducted himself as if he was King Dewata Cengkar,
(b) His promotion of Malaysia as a proud nation, and
(c) His concept of Bangsa Malaysia.

But alas, since his retirement, he has been perceived as having reverted to what people suspected of him when he was a young Turk.

His strident critics have been rather feral in calling him by various insulting descriptions, with the major one persistently pointing out (wakakaka) that he is an Indian who refused to acknowledge his ethnic (Indian) origin.

For years, Dr Mahathir didn’t say a single thing in response to this particular insult heaped upon him … till today when I read in The Malaysian Insider’s article
Malays are not immigrants, says Dr Mahathir where he said:

I would not say I am a Malay or Malaysian of ethnic Indian origin. My mother tongue and home language is Malay, my culture and tradition is Malay and I am a Muslim. The constitution defines a Malay as a person who habitually speaks Malay, practices Malay custom and tradition and is a Muslim.

He continued that: ... it was obvious some Malays were descended from people of the Indonesian islands, India and the Arabian peninsular.

Hmmm, what about Dr Ridhuan Tee who always writes, words to the effect: “Kita orang Melayu ...” instead of “Kita umat Islam ...”? Isn't it just hurtful to poor Dr Ridhuan wakakaka.

It seems Dr Mahathir has limited non-Semenanjung “Malays” to only those originating from Indonesia, India and Arabia. Why not those originally from China like poor Dr Ridhuan Tee and Omar Ong?

Anyway, I wonder whether Dr Mahathir’s assertion that he is a Malay (full stop) and not one of ethnic Indian origin had been finally his ultimate rebuttal of the tons of ethnic insults hurled at him. Could it be his long-suffered hurt has finally manifested itself in his rejection that he is a Mamak?

Then he made a very poor, in fact bad comparison when he said: Having come here they [Indons, Indians and Arabs] were assimilated after they identified themselves completely with the Malays by adopting the Malay language, their customs and traditions and by being Muslims. This is a common phenomenon. In America, Australia, Latin America the later immigrants accepted the languages of their adopted country as their mother tongue as well as the culture. After doing this they no longer think of themselves as being of their original country.

It’s a poor comparison because the languages and cultures of the Americas and Australia were imposed by foreign invaders, namely the British and Spaniards. That’s why English is spoken in USA and Australia while Spanish is in South America (with the exception of Brazil and a few kutu states).

In fact, the culture in Australia has been transformed in the last 35 years. And in the USA too!

But then, what really is culture? Well, it's basically everything in that society, from its customs, traditions, social practice, religion(s), beliefs, language, social interactions & communication, food, drinks, politics, dress, social values and activities, entertainment, so on so forth.

Can it be legislated? Only if you have a dictatorial bent and own a mind control machine.

Culture is something that grows gradually and subtly, and then, having been accepted without the acceptor even being aware of his/her acceptance, settles within a society. As I mentioned, most of the times we aren't even aware of the acceptance, practice, and growth of the new values in our midst.

Just as an example on food - today the Vietnamese pho is an intrinsic part of Australian cuisine. What about Malaysia? Are mee, meehoon and koay teow (noodles), and choy-sum (sawi) exclusively confined to Chinese cuisine? If not, can anyone tell of a date (just the year will do fine) when they were accepted/used by the other communities as Malaysian food?


Then, do only the Malays wear sarong and eat nasi lemak? As a kid I remember my dad changing quickly into a sarong whenever he returned home from work - he felt so comfy in one.

What about roti, capati, curry and pasembur? Are these made and eaten only by Indians? My late mum would cook mamak-style fish head curry with lots of brinjal (egg plant) and okra (ladies fingers) for me, knowing how much I love the dish and then teasing me that I ought to marry an Indian sweetheart to ensure I continue to be provided with the yummy curry.

The above are examples of how culture evolves – no legislation, no official enforced policies, no political bull, just free acceptance, practice and assimilation. This is what is meant by multiculturalism.

Thus I believe Dr Mahathir is both right and wrong in his attempts to define what should Malaysians do. Yes, I am aware he was describing ‘Malay’ rather than ‘Malaysian’ but his definition was meant to divide the people into Malays and non-Malays, when all of us are Malaysians. Thus I will talk about Malaysians, citizens of Malaysia.

He is right in that every Malaysian should speak fluent Malay or if you wish, Bahasa Malaysia. It needn’t be Dewan Bahasa type of Malay; colloquial Malay is good enough but the fluency should be there, especially among the younger generations. There’s no excuse in this regard.

But don’t get me wrong that I am against people learning other languages including their mother tongues. In Australia and the USA, their citizens do so.

On the issue of vernacular schools I’m personally against them as I believe they serve only to further divide us. Surprised? Never mind. However, we must examine the history of how vernacular school came about, and understand why it now has such a prominent position among the Chinese. Blame UMNO for their existence and popularity – for more, read my previous post
A central pillar of Chinese culture.

As my old friend Helen Ang (I hope she still loves me wakakaka) observed astutely in her Malaysiakini column: [The Chinese education] boat has left the harbour and sailed too far to turn back now.

... which is why we have been left with a complex, sensitive and difficult legacy.

But then, when we read of the racist conduct of some headmasters in national type schools and one or two VCs of universities, it shows that national type schools alone do not, cannot guarantee unity when unrepentent racists exist in out midst.


Many Chinese parents are so glad that they have vernacular schools to minimise their children’s exposure to such blatant cruel racism by people who dare to call themselves teachers.

But Dr Mahathir would be wrong if he prescribes being Muslim as a condition. Since he mentioned Australia and USA as examples of what he saw as citizens accepting the nation’s principal customs and traditions, I would like to inform him that there is absolute freedom to practice any religious beliefs in those countries.


In Australia the authorities even fund some non-Christian religious activities (and ethnic festivals), including Islamic ones. Incidentally both Australia and the USA are secular nations, even though the Christian faith is widely practiced and is the principal (but not official) religion.

And that is the reason why, other than Dr Ridhuan Tee and his like-minded friends wakakaka, we cannot call ourselves "Malays" but Malaysians, because to be a Malay one has to be a Muslim. Thus religion, not language or customs, separates us.


The customs and traditions of Malaysia, needless to say, are dominated and thus based on mainly the (majority) Malay customs and traditions. Non-Malays don't have any issue with that. But we have to recognize our nation's customs and traditions would not be exclusively Malay customs aand traditions, as I’ve demonstrated by way of the food we eat.

Let me reveal something to be proud of - whenever I informed a new Aussie acquaintance that I'm a Malaysian, the usual reaction I received would be: Wow, you Malaysians are really renowned for your multi-linguistic abilities. Now, wouldn't that be a reflection of our unique and proud Malaysian culture?


I am very disappointed that Bapak Bangsa Malaysia had in recent times written a number of divisive and provocative articles, with his emphasis on Malays and non-Malays, reminding us of our differences rather than our similarities.


He also has a disingenous propensity to (or attempt to) turn the tables against his critics. They described his or Perkasa or Utusan's articles as racist but he'd then claim to the contrary, that those critics were the actual racist in criticising UMNO policies and Perkasa/Utusan concerns.

But, just as an example, isn’t an UMNO government with a known, undeniable and unabashed policy of reserving all top civil and military positions for only Malays racist in nature?

While I can appreciate affirmative action for Malays, I do not see such ethnocentric exclusivity for those positions as an intrinsic part of affirmative action. It’s nothing more than racial marginalization of non-Malays from positions such as Chief Secretary, IGP, Chiefs in the Military, VCs of universities, etc.


That’s a fact, and a very sad one!

123 comments:

  1. You think there is no racism(propagating sinocentric mindset and prejudice) in Chinese schools?
    Are you really honest with yourself?

    ReplyDelete
  2. how very convenient for the chinese...the education boat having left the harbour and not being able to turn back....

    unfortunately that is the key to the creation of a malaysian nation....one education system....

    as long as the chinese do not compromise on this issue we have no future as one nation!

    jay

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  3. Ktemoc,
    Sorry! I don't have much admiration to this Apa Nama.....I would rather admire Lee Kuan Yew instead. And if Singapore did not secede from Malaysia, Malaysia might now be the richest country in Asia.
    By the way, check the NUS registrar, that apa nama is a melayu or Yindian

    ReplyDelete
  4. Ktemoc,
    By the way, malaysia has fast become Hotel California.....Enjoy the song

    http://malaysia-today.net/mtcolumns/beritakomentar/38531-kereta-anwar-dikepung-dan-dibaling-batu

    ReplyDelete
  5. Quote: "He continued that: ... it was obvious some Malays were descended from people of the Indonesian islands, India and the Arabian peninsular."

    Dear KT, see that word "some" up there in bold and italicised. In other words, some Malays were descended from such-and-such, but not ALL Malays. That means there is a hole, an opening, for the likes of that Tee fella to be admitted into the club. I guess your displeasure with the Tee fella has blind-sided you, thus causing you to miss this. ;-)

    Quote: "On the issue of vernacular schools I’m personally against them as I believe they serve only to further divide us."

    Many voices have charged that vernacular schools divide the younger generation and do not contribute to national unity and integration. Really, is that true? Are there any statistics, academic studies, and hard irrefutable evidence to prove that this is so?

    This seems more like a subjective feeling - someone merely opines that he thinks this is the case, and his listeners, without thinking too deeply on the matter, simply agree.

    As to fostering unity among the various communities, there are surely many ways to achieve that. What is required is creative thinking; think out of the box as the cliche says. Here's one right off the top of the head: let all the children - Malays, Chinese, Indians, and other races - pile into these vernacular schools and hey! in one fell swoop the one-race character of these schools is rendered null and void, and turned upside down! There are other ways, of course, all people need to do is give their imagination full rein.

    Quote: "While I can appreciate affirmative action for Malays, I do not see such ethnocentric exclusivity for those (top govt/public) positions as an intrinsic part of affirmative action. It’s nothing more than racial marginalization of non-Malays from positions such as Chief Secretary, IGP, Chiefs in the Military, VCs of universities, etc.

    That’s a fact, and a very sad one!"

    My take: Regarding the alleged lack of unity among the various races, when you ponder on it, isn't it clear that what KT observed in the paragraph above is a much greater contributory factor to national disunity than the vernacular schools could ever inflict?

    It would appear that all those accusations against vernacular schools for dividing the children is nothing more than disguised race-bashing using the schools as a convenient scape-goat. It could also be a clear manifestation of some people's shallow thinking on the subject at best or of their envy and race hate at worst.

    Quote: "I am very disappointed that Bapak Bangsa Malaysia had in recent times written a number of divisive and provocative articles, with his emphasis on Malays and non-Malays, reminding us of our differences rather than our similarities."

    MmmHmmm ... has the leopard returned to form and revealed its spots once more?

    ReplyDelete
  6. Anon of 1:30 AM, March 05, 2011, in my opinion, the 'some' means those (convertees) in addition to the main Malay community, not 'some' of those 'convertees', so Dr Ridhuan Tee was not included wakakaka.

    On vernacular education, I wrote "... serve only to further divide us." Here, the word 'further' implies we are already divided, and vernacular education doesn't help when you have the majority of students belonging to only one ethnic group (Chinese, Tamils) and socializing and talking in a non-Bahasa language. There are of course Malays and Tamils in Chinese vernacular schools but they are the exceptions to the rule. I'm not sure whether it's possible to force, for example, a greater number of Malays and Tamils into a Chinese school, or Chinese and Malays into a Tamil school. Finally, I am not claiming vernacular education is the main/principal factor for our divisiveness, but it contributes to an already widening ethnic chasm. But the standard of national type schools is so questionable that one finds it hard to champion them.

    ReplyDelete
  7. You guys may not like Mahathir. But he's here to stay. Until death does he part.
    Everyday the format of the TV news will be Najib, Rosmah and the Tun.
    He's now traversing the country on Perkasa platform. He will be a significant factor in the coming GE.
    How not to like him especially among the average Malays.
    Today he's telling that the Malays still need the government because the NEP objectives are still urealised.
    He speaks simply. Compare him to sodomy king who talk down and full of hate. Everthing is about himself!

    ReplyDelete
  8. "I would rather admire Lee Kuan Yew instead."

    you must be a chinese,hypocrisy,racist and prejudice to the core of your being.Why did lky choose goh instead of his first choice jaya,the better person?

    his own words" the majority of chinese are not ready to accept an indian as their prime minister"

    now take that and compare the same timeline regards to malaysia.

    ReplyDelete
  9. you mean if I dont assimiliate in full, i think of my ancestor's home somewhere else? what logic is that? Btw, i dont even know where is my ancestor's home and the only country i know is Msia. But I dont speak fluent Malay and will it rendered me disloyal?
    This Mamak will just want his ways and ultimately enrich his family. His greatest fear will be those ill-gotten assets are seized and return to the people, just like Marcos.

    ReplyDelete
  10. When a country treats all its citizens as equal,then people feel they have a stake. When it treats them with respect, then people feel a sense of responsibility for each other.These two ingredients are missing in Malaysia. As most of the poor are Malays, non-racial afirmative acion should and will be welcome by all. But when we insult, discriminate and look down on one another, then it is a another story. ALL Malaysians discriminate, look down on one another and insult -- save for a few rare souls. We have to take a hard look at our own behaviour and then decide what to do. I left for the sake of my mental health.

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  11. So "boat has left the harbour and sailed too far to turn back now" counts as an argument for vernacular education. But not for special Malay rights?

    The fact is that vernacular education is no more justifiable than special Malay rights. And it shows when you have to rely on "boat has left the harbour and sailed too far to turn back now" as argument.

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  12. On this issue I am afraid that YAA Tum may be correct. I have an Idian friend who married a malay lady.He converted and became Ya(his Indian Name) bin Rashid Abdullah. His children names are 'so and so bin Rashid. The Abdullah is not there.Hence based on this which I presume is accepted by the NRD and the Religious Department YAA Tun is correct. And in any case we should not attack him on his padigree but his policies.

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  13. Anon of 10:41 AM, March 07, 2011, the statement "... boat has left the harbour and sailed too far to turn back now" does not support nor argue for vernacular education. All it implies is that it is now very difficult to change the supporters' minds, to return to the national type schools. As I wrote in regards to this reality, "... we have been left with a complex, sensitive and difficult legacy", thanks to successive UMNO Ed Ministers f*ing up the once-gold standard Malayan education system

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  14. To KTemoc:

    So "... boat has left the harbour and sailed too far to turn back now" is not an argument. It's something else. And you use it to justify vernacular eduction.

    The Malay rights advocate can play exactly the same game and use the exact same gambit.

    Now let's say you counter later and say it's not a justification, but something else yet again. All the Malay rights advocate needs to do is follow you and use your exact same "argument" or whatever you want to call it for special Malay rights.

    You see my point?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Me again about "... boat has left the harbour and sailed too far to turn back now".

    A challenge.

    Can you cast your argument or justification or rationalization into a form that cannot be used by the special Malay rights advocate?

    ReplyDelete
  16. Anonymous@9:49 AM, March 08, 2011,

    Playing with circular argument, ye?

    How about this;

    '"... boat has left the harbour and sailed too far to turn back now". We should now enroll all the willing schooling M'sians into the vernacular schools. After all, they r of better standard, race-blind (all r accepted), religion indifference. On top of that u learn 3 languages for a better employment prospect.

    Now, try that with yr counter-argument used by the special Malay rights advocates.

    Wakakakak.....

    ReplyDelete
  17. The “vernacular ship” is about reaching for higher standards of education for a better future. Because of the education system being gutted and rotted by successive UMNO Education Ministers in their internal UMNO opportunistic politicking, Chinese parents could no longer trust the abysmal standard of the national type schooling system.

    What then is Malay rights about? At its worst end, it’s about abusing the “rights” to gouge the national coffers - as an example, no tender process for multi-billion ringgit contracts, just outright award to cronies, non-accountable bailouts, etc. Somewhere along the middle part of this "rights", it comprises of inappropriate and unjust polices like, just one example, housing discounts for purchases of houses worth MORE than half a million ringgit. If a person can afford that sort of hi-priced house, he/she doesn’t require discounts (at the expense of the non-Malay buyers, because the real estate company would pass on the discounts to the 'non' buyers)– this is a classic and very outrageous case of exploitation of nons for the benefit of people who don't need discounts in the first place - please note that the discount for houses with a sale price of below 500,000 ringgit is not contested. At the lower end of the Malay "rights", what do we have other than marginalized kampong Malays who have been short-changed by UMNO and its cronies (including non-Malay cronies) and told lies that the Chinese have unscrupulously and avariciously taken away from the Malays the nations’ wealth. These kampong Malays don't even have electricity or piped water, and some need to cross dangerous broken bridges daily, so who has let them down?

    “Vernacular education” does not and cannot guarantee unscrupulous personal profits but only a hope-for insurance of their children’s future through good education, whereas “Malay rights” have been turned or abused by some people into a personal profitting scheme of gross gouging proportion.

    ReplyDelete
  18. You make it sound like the Chinese would abandon vernacular education if we had an excellent national type schooling system.

    This is not so. Remember the early 70's when English schools were converted to using Malay? Chinese schools saw a spike in enrollment. Yet these converted English schools still had the same competent teachers and headmasters.

    A big part of this is the lack of prestige of things Malay among the Chinese. Imagine a Frenchman's reaction if he knew that the "Maghrebiens" enjoying French citizenship had only contempt for French civilization.

    Now you begin to see the Malay's anxiety. The economically dominant community wants equality, but does not consider the nation's pre-colonial heritage as its own.

    The Malays don't want to be Tibetans.

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  19. A note about our pre-colonial heritage.

    Before the introduction of Rumi, the only way to write our national language was with Jawi.

    That a supposedly educated "sweetie" like Teresa Kok can make an issue of this when Jawi was used for road signs betrays this lack of regard for the pre-colonial past of the nation for whom she is an MP. Either that or worse - she thought they were Arabic writing.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous@1:48 PM, March 08, 2011

    R u talking through yr bottom end orifice?

    ‘This is not so. Remember the early 70's when English schools were converted to using Malay? Chinese schools saw a spike in enrollment. Yet these converted English schools still had the same competent teachers and headmasters.’

    The spike came after the conversion of using Malay as the medium of instruction, plus the big push to Islamized the school curriculum! On top of that a lot of the dedicated school teachers were been cool-stored for the upward mobility of the wet-in-the-ear u-know-whos. These competent educators had had their incentives sidelined by a race-ceiling.Yr take about ‘these converted English schools still had the same competent teachers and headmasters’ is at least spinning, at most ignorance!

    Moreover, where is the standards of VI, St John, St Micheal etc etc now as compare with the olds of the same? Whereas, the vernacular schools r going from fame to fame, with more worldwide recognition.

    ‘A big part of this is the lack of prestige of things Malay among the Chinese.’

    What a spin! If u ever read what KTemoc has written about the incorporation of the various cultural practices into the Chinese M’sian’s daily habits! This is just the sign of inferiority showing through that falling tempurung.

    ‘The economically dominant community wants equality, but does not consider the nation's pre-colonial heritage as its own.’

    Wakakakakaka..

    Who r the one that white-washed the pre-colonial heritage as ONLY starting from the Islamic Malacca sultanates? What about those Hindu/ Buddhist heritages THAT pre-date the arrival of the Islam?

    Oh BTW, PLEASE don’t insult the Tibetans. They have a MUCH MUCH longer civilization than the Malay M’sian. OK?

    One more thing,

    ‘Before the introduction of Rumi, the only way to write our ‘national language’ was with Jawi.’

    Prior to the Merdeka of Malaya, there was NO national language, comprendi? & if u go further back, Sanskrit was the TRUE official court writing & the normal natives DIDN’T have any understanding of writing, ok?

    Is the another form of cheery picking to up-stake yr argument?

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous@3:14 PM, March 08, 2011 should learn humility - more appropriate for his level of ignorance.

    "plus the big push to Islamized the school curriculum" is completely dishonest. If that ever happened, it was not in the 70's and you know it.

    BTW, it's "to Islamize" not "to Islamized". Ask your English teacher what an infinitive is.

    "Prior to the Merdeka of Malaya, there was NO national language, comprendi?"

    Now who is doing the whitewashing? In what language was official correspondence done? Even in colonial times, what was the official form of the written the language in the Federated and Unfederated states? Who is ignorant now?

    BTW, if you want to sound knowledgeable, at least write grammatically.

    ReplyDelete
  22. "Oh BTW, PLEASE don’t insult the Tibetans. They have a MUCH MUCH longer civilization than the Malay M’sian. OK?"

    Anonymous@3:14 PM, March 08, 2011 is so stupid he doesn't understand the point being made

    ReplyDelete
  23. "Who r the one that white-washed the pre-colonial heritage as ONLY starting from the Islamic Malacca sultanates? What about those Hindu/ Buddhist heritages THAT pre-date the arrival of the Islam?"

    Anonymous@3:14 PM, March 08 is really showing how ignorant he is. Guess what the Hikayat Seri Rama is based on? The source of the stories of Wayang Kulit? The people giving this heritage a hard time is actually PAS.

    ReplyDelete
  24. "Moreover, where is the standards of VI, St John, St Micheal etc etc now as compare with the olds of the same? "

    See how dishonest these arguments of Anonymous@3:14 PM, March 08 are.

    Did these standards fall immediately upon conversion to Malay medium?
    The spike in Chinese school enrollment was immediate upon conversion to Malay medium.

    So, what point are you trying to make?

    ReplyDelete
  25. A further demonstration of the ignorance of Anonymous@3:14 PM, March 08:

    "Who r the one that white-washed the pre-colonial heritage as ONLY starting from the Islamic Malacca sultanates? What about those Hindu/ Buddhist heritages THAT pre-date the arrival of the Islam?"

    Heard of Bukit Seguntang? This is a centre of the Malay Buddhist Srivijayan civilization. Malay culture preserves the first but the destruction of Srivijaya was so complete that the name Srivijaya was forgotten to the Malays - rediscovered only in the early 20th century. Schoolchildren today study it - the moment Malays rediscovered a forgotten piece of their Buddhist past, they put it in their history textbooks. No whitewash, only your ignorance.

    ReplyDelete
  26. In New York, Italian and Yiddish are *foreign* languages with no special status with respect to other foreign languages.

    Ditto Arabic in France, Turkish in Germany, you know the rest...

    They have no "vernacular" languages in the Malaysian sense.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Who says Chinese have no special rights in Malaysia?

    They have rights that ethnic Italians and Ashkenazi Jews don't have in the US.

    They have rights that ethnic Arabs don't have in the France.

    They have rights that ethnic Turks don't have in the Germany.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous@ 4:35 PM, March 08, 2011& those T minus minus,

    Hehehehehehe, So u r NOT disputing the islamization of those schools. When was it happened, let’s agree to disagree. Wakakaka…..Those sekolak kawalan r really biting the dust!

    ‘In what language was official correspondence done? Even in colonial times, what was the official form of the written the language in the Federated and Unfederated states? Who is ignorant now?’

    They r written in the official language of the Engrand, comprendi? The Jawi version was a syok-sendiri copies that the colonial master used to placate the locals. After all, how many of the locals do read & write Jawi to understand the significance of those documents. I’m not surprise that there was a caveat that stated in case of dispute, ONLY the Engrand version would be the official reference. Wakakakakaka…

    BTW, can u show any court decree to the native (not involving the white-devil) to justify yr claim of the jawilised 'national language'?

    ‘Malay culture preserves the first but the destruction of Srivijaya was so complete that the name Srivijaya was forgotten to the Malays - rediscovered only in the early 20th century. Schoolchildren today study it - the moment Malays rediscovered a forgotten piece of their Buddhist past, they put it in their history textbooks.’

    This is indeed new to me. Care to show anywhere in the history text book, used by our school children, mentioned in DETAIL about that?

    What about Gangga Negara, Langkasuka, Kota Gelanggi? What happened to the CONTRIBUTION of Hinduism/Buddhism to the civilization of the pre-colonial heritage? They DID give some cultural integrals to the local heritage until the islamization TOTALLY white-washed them away.

    If the current history text used by our school children is not a white-wash, then u r not a spin doctor!

    BTW u do sound like apocrypha – hahaha another one bite the dust, ouch, ouch!

    ReplyDelete
  29. "BTW, can u show any court decree to the native (not involving the white-devil) to justify yr claim of the jawilised 'national language'?"

    Quiz: which US law says that English is the official language of the US.

    By now I am realizing you are too stupid make the connection - this is for others reading the comments.

    ReplyDelete
  30. "Hehehehehehe, So u r NOT disputing the islamization of those schools."

    Your English really is that bad. The only point I needed to make was that it did not happen in the 70's - the time of the spike in enrolment. Ergo the reason for the spike is not Islamization. Look up what non sequitur means.

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  31. "They r written in the official language of the Engrand, comprendi? The Jawi version was a syok-sendiri copies that the colonial master used to placate the locals. After all, how many of the locals do read & write Jawi to understand the significance of those documents. I’m not surprise that there was a caveat that stated in case of dispute, ONLY the Engrand version would be the official reference. Wakakakakaka…"

    Say exactly this to a historian of the period of the Federated and Unfederated Malay States and see him control his laughter.

    ReplyDelete
  32. "This is indeed new to me. Care to show anywhere in the history text book, used by our school children, mentioned in DETAIL about that?"

    Do you believe this guy? Saying "This is indeed new to me" after displaying all his ignorance.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Bloody hell, let’s go for the jugular!

    ‘In New York, Italian and Yiddish are *foreign* languages with no special status with respect to other foreign languages.

    Ditto Arabic in France, Turkish in Germany, you know the rest...’

    Let me paraphrase yr writing so that u can understand.

    In New York, Italian and Yiddish are *foreign* languages with no special status with respect to other foreign languages.

    Ditto Arabic in France, Turkish in Germany, you know the rest...BCOZ they r minority of minute number (<5%????? of the population).

    In M’sia, the ‘minority IS a BIG number (>35%++++ of the population)

    Also, M'sia has a piece of Federal Constitution stating about the position of the vernacular education.

    & pls don’t bring in yr article 153 & those special position bits. We r talking about vernacular education here. Just like those choirboys of DN like to shout – out of topic, out of topic!!!!!

    BTW why don’t u mention a country where the quantum of minority is as large as those in M’sia.?

    What about starting with same religion but different branch – Suni and Shia. & whose killing who now?

    How about Switzerland, Belgium or the red dot?

    Want to say some more, bloody cheery-picker!

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  34. "BTW u do sound like apocrypha – hahaha another one bite the dust, ouch, ouch"

    Amazing for someone can't even string together a coherent sentence, much less argument.

    ReplyDelete
  35. "How about Switzerland, Belgium"


    Haha, showed your ignorance. You are throwing around the little you know of multi-lingual states without knowing how they are formed.

    Ignoramus, get an education and find out the difference...

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  36. "Also, M'sia has a piece of Federal Constitution stating about the position of the vernacular education. "

    My my my, you really don't see the irony do you...

    What else does it state you idiot.

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  37. "BCOZ they r minority of minute number (<5%????? of the population)."

    What is the percentage of Tibetans in Tibet?

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LK04Ad02.html

    But you're gonna Tibet is part of China...

    Now you know why Malays are worried of losing power...

    ReplyDelete
  38. It is so obvious that Anon 1.48 pm 8 March is an intellectually bankrupt debater as well as dishonest to boot.

    Not being able to match his opponent's points he used the ploy of changing the subject by picking on his opponent's grammatical errors! Hey, encik, if you want to argue about grammar and such stuff go to a forum on education/English language. This forum here is about discussing ideas.

    Anon 1:48 pm also wrote: "Remember the early 70's when English schools were converted to using Malay? Chinese schools saw a spike in enrollment. Yet these converted English schools still had the same competent teachers and headmasters."

    The above statement is more of a personal and private opinion than a statement of fact. It's like someone claiming that 65% of Malaysians fart through their mouth instead of through their rear end. Unless credible, accurate numbers/statistics are provided to support this statement then it is nothing more than just an invalid, unsubstantiated claim. And everyone knows that every Ahmad, Ah Chong and Muthu is free to make whatever claims that strike their fancy. Whether such claims are true or false therefore must absolutely be subjected to careful and thorough checking out. We are all aware that dishonest, scurrilous types with a personal agenda are inclined to make sweeping, specious arguments with the intention of tricking unsuspecting listeners/readers to support their stand.

    ReplyDelete
  39. "Not being able to match his opponent's points he used the ploy of changing the subject by picking on his opponent's grammatical errors!"

    But only after he said:
    "R u talking through yr bottom end orifice?", if that is fair, so is picking on grammatical errors - and the subject was not changed.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Now this is truly dishonest:

    "The above statement is more of a personal and private opinion than a statement of fact. It's like someone claiming that 65% of Malaysians fart through their mouth instead of through their rear end. Unless credible, accurate numbers/statistics are provided to support this statement then it is nothing more than just an invalid, unsubstantiated claim. And everyone knows that every Ahmad, Ah Chong and Muthu is free to make whatever claims that strike their fancy. Whether such claims are true or false therefore must absolutely be subjected to careful and thorough checking out. We are all aware that dishonest, scurrilous types with a personal agenda are inclined to make sweeping, specious arguments with the intention of tricking unsuspecting listeners/readers to support their stand."

    Which claim are you referring to?

    1) Remember the early 70's when English schools were converted to using Malay

    OR

    2) Chinese schools saw a spike in enrollment

    OR

    3) Yet these converted English schools still had the same competent teachers and headmasters."

    Ask Ktemoc whether he disputes any of the 3 claims.

    ReplyDelete
  41. "BCOZ they r minority of minute number (<5%????? of the population)."

    What is the percentage of Javanese in Indoenesia? Are there separate Javanese schools?

    ReplyDelete
  42. "In M’sia, the ‘minority IS a BIG number (>35%++++ of the population)"

    I hope Malays reading this (if any) will notice something here. When it comes to government contracts, civil service jobs, university places, scholarships, everybody is the same.

    But when it comes to percentages of population, they want to be counted separately because they need it to enforce some kind of 5% rule. If you are more than 5% of the population, you can have a separate school system.

    But even scarier is this, if such a claim can be made for a minority percentage, what claims will be made if that percentage of Chinese exceeds 50%?

    ReplyDelete
  43. "BCOZ they r minority of minute number (<5%????? of the population)."

    Sorry ignoramus, Arabs in France have already exceeded the 5% bar.

    ReplyDelete
  44. "Hey, encik, if you want to argue about grammar and such stuff go to a forum on education/English language. This forum here is about discussing ideas."

    So it is OK in this forum to say "R u talking through yr bottom end orifice?" but not OK to correct grammatical errors. Thank you for revealing yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  45. What r u talking about 'separate Javanese schools'?

    Is there such a 'language' as Javanese, both in written & spoken?

    Oh - yes long time ago, when Sanskrit was used! So can the present Javanese demands Sanskrit schools?

    There lies yr twisted logic of bringing up all those racial numbers!

    BTW, through this argument;

    'You are throwing around the little you know of multi-lingual states without knowing how they are formed.'

    R u biting off yr rear end, just to justify what u said above?

    Moreover, how long ago was Tibet a province of China. For yr lesson, longer than that of the Malacca sultanate!

    I suppose u wanted to bring in Tibet for thingy Chinese, then can the Orang Asli does the same for P M'sia? Or let us be more 'positive' - can the Thai claimed P M'sia as under her sovereignty? Can the Brunei Sultanate claimed both Sabah & Sarawak? U do know how to open a big can of worms just to cover yr in-born Malay siege mentality!

    Stick to Malaya history if that's what u claimed to be good at.

    Then, what can u expect from a hp6 spin doctor?

    ReplyDelete
  46. Now this is an intellectually bankrupt debater as well as dishonest to boot:

    "The above statement is more of a personal and private opinion than a statement of fact. It's like someone claiming that 65% of Malaysians fart through their mouth instead of through their rear end. Unless credible, accurate numbers/statistics are provided to support this statement then it is nothing more than just an invalid, unsubstantiated claim. And everyone knows that every Ahmad, Ah Chong and Muthu is free to make whatever claims that strike their fancy. Whether such claims are true or false therefore must absolutely be subjected to careful and thorough checking out. We are all aware that dishonest, scurrilous types with a personal agenda are inclined to make sweeping, specious arguments with the intention of tricking unsuspecting listeners/readers to support their stand."

    Notice that he does not dispute the claims made, but makes general comments to make it sound like the claims has been demolished.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Please please please repeat this:

    ""Is there such a 'language' as Javanese, both in written & spoken?"


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  48. "Then, what can u expect from a hp6 spin doctor?"

    If you are so ignorant that you don't know that Javanese has a written literature that predates what we call today the "Sejarah Melayu", you really want to avoid calling people hp6

    ReplyDelete
  49. "Oh - yes long time ago, when Sanskrit was used! So can the present Javanese demands Sanskrit schools?"

    I will let the educated people here draw their own conclusions about this idiot's ability to make logical inferences.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Anon 9:17 AM, March 09, 2011 please get an educated person's help before you write anything.

    ReplyDelete
  51. "Not being able to match his opponent's points"

    Yeah, I can't match his ability to make Javanese written literature disappear through sheer ignorance.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Let see who’s the ignoramus!

    Wikipedia on Javanese language;

    ‘The Javanese language is part of the Austronesian family, and is therefore related to Indonesian and other Malay varieties.’

    So u r using THAT definition for a Javanese language!

    Why don’t u call our local Kelantanese dialect as language? Ooooh, then the Cantonese, Hakka & the Hokkian of the Chinese M’sia can also define their dialects as languages! Further a field, do like what the Belgian does - defined two dialects of similar root as two different languages. Ditto for the Swiss Cantons!

    Wondering, how u got through to yr education.

    I’m laughing with tear, bcoz I’m indeed arguing with a hp6 spin doctor of spurious knowledge! Perhaps, I should rest my breadth, bcoz, u r definitely not apocrypha. More like the one as spelt out in the phrase of mis-stepping on walk & yet claimed the floor is not flat ( save yr thought – this is not the same as ta’tau menari, cakap tanah ta rata!)

    ROTFLOL

    ReplyDelete
  53. Anon 9:47 AM, March 09, 2011

    Talk to a real linguist before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

    1) Find out why linguists say Chinese languages (plural) instead of Chinese language (singular)

    2) Sino-Tibetan is a language family like Austronesion. Burmese and Tibetan are in the Sino-Tibetan family and they are different languages. Javanese and Malay and TAGALOG are different languages in the Austronesian family.

    3) Linguists will agree that Kelantanese is a dialect but about Cantonese, find out what these terms mean: Wu, Min, Yue, Gan etc.

    A little learning is a dangerous this. It's worse if it happened only 5 minutes ago.

    You are now an even bigger ignoramus than you started out with.

    Again:


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
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    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  54. Ahem...

    ‘The Javanese language is part of the Austronesian family, and is therefore related to Indonesian and other Malay varieties.’

    This is also true:

    ‘The TAGALOG language is part of the Austronesian family, and is therefore related to Indonesian and other Malay varieties.’

    I hope I don't have to spoon feed you about what Tagalog is.


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
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    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  55. "’m laughing with tear, bcoz I’m indeed arguing with a hp6 spin doctor of spurious knowledge! Perhaps, I should rest my breadth, bcoz, u r definitely not apocrypha. More like the one as spelt out in the phrase of mis-stepping on walk & yet claimed the floor is not flat ( save yr thought – this is not the same as ta’tau menari, cakap tanah ta rata!)"

    So you still think Javanese has no written literature?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Hey Anon9:47 AM, March 09, 2011

    After all that research you still think Javanese has no written literature?


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  57. Hey Anon9:47 AM, March 09, 2011

    In case you are still confused:

    1) Kelantanese is a dialect of Malay

    2) Javanese is a separate language from Malay, but both are Autronesian languages. So are Fijian and Tagalog.

    You know, if you are so ignorant you need to be more humble so people will teach you stuff, and you become less ignorant.

    ReplyDelete
  58. I should READILY rest my case!

    Arguing with a pseudo-linguist now. Ha!

    Walou-eh, throwing terms like 'Sino-Tibetan is a language family like Austronesion. Burmese and Tibetan are in the Sino-Tibetan family and they are different languages. Javanese and Malay and TAGALOG are different languages in the Austronesian family.' & 'Javanese is a separate language from Malay, but both are Autronesian languages. So are Fijian and Tagalog.'

    Hey....thick head - think, think what's the root defination of a language. U have said some & yet u cant see them! Can a different branch of a language constitute a 'clade' by itself?

    Hahahaha... should I suggest a taxonomist for u? Indeed a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in the hand of hp6 spin doctor.

    BTW, where did I say this - 'Javanese has no written literature?

    Cheery-picking or hallucinating? or both?

    ReplyDelete
  59. By Jove! He's almost got it!

    From

    "Is there such a 'language' as Javanese, both in written & spoken?"

    To:

    "BTW, where did I say this - 'Javanese has no written literature? "

    Now for further progress say slowly:

    Javanese is not a dialect of Malay. Javanese is a language just as Tagalog and Fijian are languages.


    See, not so hard, right?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  60. "BTW, where did I say this - 'Javanese has no written literature? "

    You doubt that Javanese has a written form:

    "Is there such a 'language' as Javanese, both in written & spoken?"

    I know you are ignorant. But no matter how ignorant you are, how can a language without a written form have written literature?

    Nice try ...


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  61. Indeed cheery-picking to the extreme!

    U still dont see my argument!

    See - '"Is there such a 'language' as Javanese, both in written & spoken?"'

    What's that phrase a 'language' as Javanese meant? Remember what I mentioned about clade?

    Where is a taxonomist?

    Deep hallucination goes with that thought!

    ReplyDelete
  62. To Anon 11:29 AM, March 09, 2011

    Wow! Incoherence as a debating technique!

    Nice try idiot ...

    So, you don't dispute that

    1) Whatever you think you understand about clades, no linguist disputes that Javanese is a language, just like Malay, Tagalog and Fijian.

    2) Javanese has a written form.

    You are not only ignorant, you are also slimy, trying to slip away from the ridiculous things you are saying.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  63. "What's that phrase a 'language' as Javanese meant?"

    Does anyone notice the irony here? Someone who cannot write coherent sentences is talking about linguistics!!!


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    ReplyDelete
  64. When you write sentences like

    "What's that phrase a 'language' as Javanese meant?"

    It makes me doubt whether you know English enough to understand the source material you are reading.


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    ReplyDelete
  65. "Where is a taxonomist?"

    "Deep hallucination goes with that thought!"

    Are you using Google Translate?


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    ReplyDelete
  66. My God! I've been debating arguments generated by Google Translate! Add ignorance to that and I understand why Anon 11:29 AM, March 09, 2011 sounds so stupid.


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  67. Nagarakretagama

    ReplyDelete
  68. Hey Anon 11:29 AM, March 09, 2011,

    Since you know about clades, this should be easy for you.

    Are the Nagarakretagama and the Batu Bersurat in the same language?


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    ReplyDelete
  69. One last attempt...

    A clade CANNOT be a sub-branch, it MUST be self-contained.

    So,

    Are the Nagarakretagama and the Batu Bersurat in the same language? So as ALL those that u claimed as under the same family!

    Go figure yrself. ROTFLOL.

    Oh... did google translate do soooo much things as u claimed?

    Now who's the ignoramus?

    ReplyDelete
  70. Nice try Anon 12:46 PM, March 09, 2011

    Everyone can see that

    "So as ALL those that u claimed as under the same family!"

    is an evasion.

    You got caught red handed. Anyone familiar with either Nagarakretagama and the Batu Bersurat will state unambigously that they are in different languages.

    The same way that "Paradise Lost" and "La vie de Gargantua et de Pantagruel" are in different languages (French and English are in the same language family).

    You are not only ignorant, having been proven that, you venture into dishonesty.

    Pathetic.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  71. "Oh... did google translate do soooo much things as u claimed?"

    You mean you came up with

    "Where is a taxonomist?"

    "Deep hallucination goes with that thought!"

    ON YOUR OWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  72. Impressive:
    "A clade CANNOT be a sub-branch, it MUST be self-contained."

    I am going to call the bluff of "Anon 12:46 PM, March 09, 2011"

    So you know clades. Which of these are clades and which are not

    1) Austronesian
    2) Malay
    3) Javanese
    4) Kelantanese.

    Anon 12:46 PM, March 09, 2011 will not give a strait answer because he doesn't know what he is talking about. Just see. Expect evasion.


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    ReplyDelete
  73. Ouch, ouch2x!!!

    Nagarakretagama?

    Him? Noooooooo.

    Batu Bersurat?

    Him? Impossible.

    But, but combining Nagarakretagama & Batu Bersurat?

    Definitely!

    I know WHO u r!

    BTW, I take back what I said about google search. Google search definitely produces more intelligent infos than the papers u’ve had put out! Any logic why yr papers have zilch peer review?

    Yr challenge? OK!

    ‘So you know clades. Which of these are clades and which are not

    1) Austronesian
    2) Malay
    3) Javanese
    4) Kelantanese.’

    How far back u want that clade to be? What’s yr definition of a particular clade under yr study?

    Let me throw u back a challenge. Game?

    There r only 5 human races in the world - Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Dravidoid and the Austranesoid.

    R they of the same clade?

    Simple izzn’t it?

    Apocrypha? Definitely. Another one bites the dust.

    Ha! I refuse to accept yr imagination & over-write it with my logic!

    I'm having the last laugh......

    ReplyDelete
  74. To 2:11 PM, March 09, 2011:

    "Google search definitely produces more intelligent infos than the papers u’ve had put out! Any logic why yr papers have zilch peer review?"

    My my my. Really ran out of arguments have you ;) I have no published papers on Nagarakretagama & Batu Bersurat. These were mentioned in secondary school textbooks when I was still in school. Did you attend secondary school?

    Still won't give a strait answer would you ;)

    The fact is Javanese is the language that the Nagarakretagama was written in. The Batu Bersurat was written in a different language (different script even) - Malay.

    You don't need clades to know this and your evasiveness (I was right) shows you have no idea what this has to do with the issue.

    Get over it. Javanese is a language.

    You pathetic ignorant fool...

    ReplyDelete
  75. "Google search definitely produces more intelligent infos than the papers u’ve had put out! Any logic why yr papers have zilch peer review?"

    Says something about your education level. Someone who has heard of Nagarakretagama & Batu Bersurat and knows what language they are written in must be an academic or researcher of some sort publishing papers.

    You are not only ignorant, you actually think that your level of ignorance is normal.

    "I'm having the last laugh....."

    Yes, ignorance is bliss ;)

    ReplyDelete
  76. "I know WHO u r!"

    What worse than ignorance? Not knowing something and claiming that you do!


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  77. I couldn't resist this:

    "I know WHO u r!"

    Based on what else you claim to know, you definitely don't.


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  78. Hey, do a google search on "Paradise Lost" and "La vie de Gargantua et de Pantagruel" and Nagarakretagama & Batu Bersurat, maybe you'd do better!


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  79. "I know WHO u r!"

    A challenge. Email your response to "me". You know who "I" am. Go ahead. Yes! Go ahead!

    Or better. Complain to "my" employee for using abusive language.

    So are you ignorant when you said
    "I know WHO u r!"

    Don't tell me you are starting to realize your own ignorance!!!!


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
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    ReplyDelete
  80. OK Anon 2:11 PM, March 09, 2011,

    Let "me" help you along for the complaint to "my" employer. Give you something to complain about to "my" employer.

    Hey Anon 2:11 PM, March 09, 2011,

    Fuck you!!!
    Fuck you!!!
    Fuck you!!!
    Fuck you!!!
    Fuck you!!!
    Fuck you!!!
    Fuck you!!!
    Fuck you!!!

    There should enough. Unless you realize that you are ignorant of course.

    ReplyDelete
  81. How clumsy can this guy get:

    "There r only 5 human races in the world - Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Dravidoid and the Austranesoid.
    R they of the same clade?"

    Clades are almost uncontroversial when applied to biological species. The fact that he chose human "races" to apply it to shows how ignorant and unfamiliar he is with the state of current scientific knowledge and what is and is not considered controversial. This guy is not just ignorant, he is a simpleton.

    For God's sake, get educated first. You are a laughing stock.

    ReplyDelete
  82. "Ha! I refuse to accept yr imagination & over-write it with my logic!"

    Really! How are such sentences generated?!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  83. Another "gem" ...

    "Apocrypha? Definitely. Another one bites the dust."

    Does he at least make sense to himself?

    ReplyDelete
  84. Here is a collection:

    "Ha! I refuse to accept yr imagination & over-write it with my logic!"

    "Apocrypha? Definitely. Another one bites the dust."

    "Where is a taxonomist?"

    "Deep hallucination goes with that thought!"

    Who else writes like this?

    ReplyDelete
  85. It's just dawned on me how stupid this guy is. He is not just ignorant, he is stupid.

    Look at how much effort it takes over a simple matter of fact.

    Javanese is a language. You didn't know it before. Now you do. That's all.

    Breton is a language. You didn't know it before. Now you do. That's all.

    Romansh is a language. You didn't know it before. Now you do. That's all.

    What an incredible idiot this guy is.

    ReplyDelete
  86. "How far back u want that clade to be? What’s yr definition of a particular clade under yr study?"

    You were the one who introduced clades into the discussion of Austronesian, Malay, Javanese and Kelantanese!!!!

    When you introduced clades into the discussion, what were the clades you had in mind? "How far back" were they? What was the definition you used when you introduced them into the discussion?

    Why do you need to ask if you knew how clades fit into the discussion.

    The fact is that you don't know what you are talking about. You are evading a topic that you yourself introduced!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  87. "I know WHO u r!"

    At least make it public here! I challenge you to make it public here!

    Go ahead please please please!!!

    Expose who I am!

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

    Or you know deep inside your heart that again you have been found ignorant.


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
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    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  88. "Ouch, ouch2x!!!
    Nagarakretagama?
    Him? Noooooooo.
    Batu Bersurat?
    Him? Impossible.
    But, but combining Nagarakretagama & Batu Bersurat?
    Definitely!
    I know WHO u r!
    BTW, I take back what I said about google search. Google search definitely produces more intelligent infos than the papers u’ve had put out! Any logic why yr papers have zilch peer review?"

    Alamak lu cakap banyak banyak besar lo...

    Nanti teka salah, macam mana?

    Banyak banyak malu lo...

    Dia sudah challenge lu .. cakap lu tak tahu .. cakap lu bodoh.. mesti expose dia lah..

    Kalau tak expose erti lu tak tahu... banyak banyak malu..

    Sudah cakap besar... malu pun besar lo...

    Wakakaka!!!

    ReplyDelete
  89. "I'm having the last laugh....."

    Betul kah? Buat sendiri malu pun boleh ketawa kah?

    Wah...muka lu banyak tebal lo...

    ReplyDelete
  90. Anon. 1.48 PM March 8 wrote: "Remember the early 70's when English schools were converted to using Malay? Chinese schools saw a spike in enrollment. Yet these converted English schools still had the same competent teachers and headmasters."

    1. Care to provide the numbers? What were the enrolment figures for the Chinese schools before the English medium schools were converted to using Malay, and what were the enrolment numbers after the conversion? Then we can see if there was indeed a spike in the enrolment into Chinese medium schools.

    2. "Yet these converted English schools still had the same competent teachers and headmasters." - You are merely claiming that this is so. Is there not a possibility that many of these teachers may have been transferred, some may have resigned, and some retired?

    3. Are you suggesting that the students chose to enrol in Chinese medium schools because the English medium schools had converted to using Malay as a medium of instruction? So did you interview each and everyone of these students and their parents? Did they tell you that this is indeed the very reason they have decided to turn their backs on the converted English schools?

    ReplyDelete
  91. and the winner of the debate(??) ;-) is Anonymous wakakaka

    ReplyDelete
  92. About Anon 12:03 AM, March 10, 2011

    Anyone else see through this? If it's an opinion you don't agree with, then facts must involve "interview each and everyone of these students and their parents"

    Notice that the claim that


    The “vernacular ship” is about reaching for higher standards of education for a better future. Because of the education system being gutted and rotted by successive UMNO Education Ministers in their internal UMNO opportunistic politicking, Chinese parents could no longer trust the abysmal standard of the national type schooling system.


    does not elicit the same demand. It is not required in this case? Only the case against vernacular education requires "interview each and everyone of these students and their parents"

    Dishonest indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  93. "Ouch, ouch2x!!!
    Nagarakretagama?
    Him? Noooooooo.
    Batu Bersurat?
    Him? Impossible.
    But, but combining Nagarakretagama & Batu Bersurat?
    Definitely!
    I know WHO u r!
    BTW, I take back what I said about google search. Google search definitely produces more intelligent infos than the papers u’ve had put out! Any logic why yr papers have zilch peer review?"

    Aiyoyo...siapa dia..lu cakap lu tahu.

    Dia sudah challenge lu expose dia ... lu masih diam diam...sudah cakap besar sekarang diam diam...

    Lu malu besar lah...

    ReplyDelete
  94. To Anon 12:03 AM, March 10, 2011

    The argument was against points that were not the result of "interviews each and everyone of these students and their parents"

    Since you consider it a defect, it is interesting that you choose not to point it out in an earlier occurence but it its rebuttal.

    Since you like to use the word dishonesty, it only apt that it applies to you.

    ReplyDelete
  95. To 12:03 AM, March 10, 2011

    Notice that I did not use the same style of arguments against Ktemoc as you did against mine, requiring airtight proofs of his claims - and he made quite a few claims.

    Why? Because I take this as a good faith argument. We know Malaysia is corrupt because we live in it - no statistic needed to convince me.

    Same for my claims. Vernacular education has been discussed a long time. The spike is something taken for granted in the many discussion - I remember it in The Star in the 70's/80's. I lived through it. My grandfather was shocked when he sent me to the ex-English primary school he attended. 95% were Malay.

    In a nutshell, some facts are "background knowledge" that people in a good faith argument take for granted to move things along.

    When you say "interview each and everyone of these students and their parents", it's obvous you are not interested in good faith, especially when you apply it selectively.

    Its not just honesty. Its good faith.

    ReplyDelete
  96. "My grandfather was shocked when he sent me to the ex-English primary school he attended. 95% were Malay."

    And the teachers were still mostly the English-educated Chinese/Indian sort.

    Of course this is not an airtight proof, but I know people who are interested in a good faith debate do not require it. They ask around or they themselves were schooling in the 70's.

    ReplyDelete
  97. For example my rebuttal of

    "Chinese parents could no longer trust the abysmal standard of the national type schooling system."

    will not involve asking for interview results.

    Instead I would point that the spike was immediate, too soon for it the result of fallen standards.

    Then I wait for his counterclaim.

    Now that's an example of honest disagreement.

    Understand?

    ReplyDelete
  98. "You are merely claiming that this is so. Is there not a possibility that many of these teachers may have been transferred, some may have resigned, and some retired?"

    This is another tactic. There is nothing to rebut because he is not claiming anything. He is introducing a possibility. But notice that this is a disguised claim: that "these teachers have been transferred, some have resigned, and some retired" with the word "may" inserted at the right places.

    You see what he has done? He has shifted the burden of proof to the anti-vernacular position.

    So the tactic is, don't make claims. If you make them, disguise them, then your position will look like the default position and the burden of proof is on the opponent.

    For this to work, make sure somebody else is making the explicit claims for your position. Your role is solely to attack so you have no explicit claims to defend. This makes it look like you are scoring all the point without taking any hits - because you are giving your opponent nothing to hit. The claims for your position are being made by somebody else.

    ReplyDelete
  99. And finally to Anon12:03 AM, March 10, 2011

    I won't presume to correct your grammar - and you are against it anyway.

    But is it OK to say "R u talking through yr bottom end orifice?" to you? You don't seem to be against this in a previous occasion.

    ReplyDelete
  100. I am against Ktemoc's position on vernacular education.

    Let's say somebody like Anon 12:03 AM, March 10, 2011 attacks Ktemoc's position using the same tactics the he used against the anti-vernacular position - interview demands/possibilities instead of explicit claims, etc.

    I wouldn't be interested. In fact I would consider any defeat of Ktemoc's position using these tactics to be hollow and serve no purpose. I wouldn't even consider it a defeat, it
    's just creating impressions.

    ReplyDelete
  101. "It is so obvious that Anon 1.48 pm 8 March is an intellectually bankrupt debater as well as dishonest to boot.
    Not being able to match his opponent's points he used the ploy of changing the subject by picking on his opponent's grammatical errors! Hey, encik, if you want to argue about grammar and such stuff go to a forum on education/English language. This forum here is about discussing ideas."

    And yes, the ungrammatical opponent mentioned in this case is now thoroughly discredited.

    The "intellectually bankrupt" fellow discredited him.

    ReplyDelete
  102. "Your role is solely to attack so you have no explicit claims to defend. This makes it look like you are scoring all the point without taking any hits - because you are giving your opponent nothing to hit."

    To add to this, this is where the interview demands and airtight proof demands come in handy. You can attack him with it - he has explicit claims. But he can't use it on you - your claims are being made by somebody else, not you.

    ReplyDelete
  103. And finally, your tactics serves no purpose other than to debase the debate.

    What other recourse do I have? Since I can't use the tactics on you because you make no claims, I have to discredit those tactics by using it on your unwitting partner Ktemoc.

    So, goodbye good faith, it's all tactics.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Still, claims require arguments or proof or evidence. But what level of rigour is fair?

    In fact this level of rigour is sorted out during the debate itself. One party must not expect more rigour from his opponent than he expects from himself. Otherwise the opponent will point that out to him. Any party that wants to increase the level of rigour cannot do this at no cost to himself. This is the regulating mechanism.

    But what if one party makes no claims?Then he can arbitrarily introduce any level of rigour at no cost to himself.

    ReplyDelete
  105. "But what if one party makes no claims?Then he can arbitrarily introduce any level of rigour at no cost to himself."

    And that is exactly what Anon12:03 AM, March 10, 2011 is taking advantage of.

    ReplyDelete
  106. How high can the level of rigour go?

    The upper limit evidently is mathematics.

    But applied to other areas of life, there is a limit beyond which things start being absurd.

    For example, before we can make any claim about the world, how do we know the world is real and we are not dreaming it all?

    So, there is a lot of room for people like Anon12:03 AM, March 10, 2011 to
    manoeuvre. But he has to be careful, above a certain level, he exposes his own dishonesty.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Hi KTemoc,

    I’m the anon who has be labeled ignoramus nth times.

    I’m going to be brief & hopefully non technical about an item that’s deep in my hobby.

    “Clade”

    This is a taxonomical term normally used in anthropology classification.

    Groups of creatures that all share a common ancestor r called clades. A clade can be small, with only a few members, like genus Homo: or very large, like the primate group as a whole. In an ideal taxonomy, little clades rest within bigger clades, which rest within even bigger clades. So the mammals as a whole form a clade of which the primates as a whole r a subgroup.

    Clades have to be defined carefully. A clade is not a true clade unless it contains all the descendants of any particular ancestor, plus the ancestor itself. It must not contain any other creatures that r not part of the lineage. This is easily said than done.

    There r currently 4 controversial evolution hypotheses of the primates. In no small way, the ‘mess’ is contributed by the individual definition of clades within the primates by the experts.

    Now the linguistic part.

    I’m, with a few others, r the proponent of clades to the linguistic classification. We see the similarity between language classes & animal kingdom evolution.

    So to put thing in a simplest manner, English is a language clade by itself. Within it, there r England English, American English & Manglish etc. For that matter, any ‘descendants’ of English belong to that clade & nothing else. All these ‘descendants’ r not true language by themselves, they r only the sub-set. Maybe ‘dialect’ is a more correct term. But then racial pride gets into play & everything turns upside-down. Just imagine, how many can tolerate his/her spoken/written tongue been classified as dialect!

    So based on the above clarification, ‘Javanese’ is a sub-set of the Austronesian language clade.

    Hope this clarify the mess caused.

    Ignorance is indeed a bliss!

    ReplyDelete
  108. Anon 10:47 AM, March 11, 2011 is still an ignoramus.

    Austronesian is a clade.

    Is Indo-European a clade?

    You say English is a language clade.

    What is the relationship between English and Indo-European.

    Austronesian is a language family.
    You must know what Indo-European is!

    Please respond, I want to how how you are still ignorant.

    If fact you don't need all these to know a few simple facts. My nenek pun tahu.

    Bahasa Melayu memang ada.
    Bahasa Jawa pun memang ada.
    Bahasa Kelantan tak da.
    Loghat Kelantan ada.



    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  109. Anon10:47 AM, March 11, 2011

    Aiyoyo...baru tahu lu sendiri bodoh.. tadi pergi belajar lebih sedikit..nak tunjuk lu tahu...tapi..masih bodoh...

    Sekarang ada malu kali dua lah...

    ReplyDelete
  110. Ouch, ouch2x!!!
    Nagarakretagama?
    Him? Noooooooo.
    Batu Bersurat?
    Him? Impossible.
    But, but combining Nagarakretagama & Batu Bersurat?
    Definitely!
    I know WHO u r!
    BTW, I take back what I said about google search. Google search definitely produces more intelligent infos than the papers u’ve had put out! Any logic why yr papers have zilch peer review?"

    Oi! Lu cakap lu tahu... mana itu expose?

    Lu tahu atau tak tahu oi!

    Dia cakap lu bodoh. Mesti tunjuk lu tahu...nanti malu lo...

    ReplyDelete
  111. "Groups of creatures that all share a common ancestor r called clades. A clade can be small, with only a few members, like genus Homo: or very large, like the primate group as a whole. In an ideal taxonomy, little clades rest within bigger clades, which rest within even bigger clades. So the mammals as a whole form a clade of which the primates as a whole r a subgroup."

    I see the ignoramus realized his faux pas of trying to use human "races" to apply clades to, did some quick but still incomplete reading and changed tact...

    It's so clumsy it's hilarious!


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  112. Hey Anon 10:47 AM, March 11, 2011

    So you say

    1) English is a clade
    2) Austronesian is a clade.

    Now decide on the rest

    3) French
    4) Indo-European
    5) Malay
    6) Javanese

    You have basically fallen into a trap you made yourself idiot!!!


    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  113. "So based on the above clarification, ‘Javanese’ is a sub-set of the Austronesian language clade. "

    I'm enjoying seeing you in your own trap.

    Clarify further. Is English the sub-set of any "langauge clade"?

    IT'S OBVIOUS YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!YOU ARE MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  114. Amboi Ktemoc nampaknya your posting this one very powerful lah can attract more than 100 comments here!!! Your readers got so much free time to write so much. All the anomynous writers all got no name confusing lah don know who is saying what. But got so much time to write banyak banyak!!! Pada pandangan saya they are all must be jobless, unemployed (unemployable?) pathetic losers with lots of free time and nothing better to do, kekekeke. Maknanya they dont have a life lah but just seat at their computor for hours and hours every day in their underwear and smelly teeshirt typing out their comments. Let me borow your word wakakakakaka heheheheh!!!!! Sorrylah anyone feel offend but true is true kekekeke!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  115. And two more

    7) Tagalog
    8) Fijian

    (are they clades)

    just to help you with your own trap

    ReplyDelete
  116. "So based on the above clarification, ‘Javanese’ is a sub-set of the Austronesian language clade. "

    Ahem.. this means

    ‘Fijian’ is a sub-set of the Austronesian language clade. "

    So

    Malay and Javanese

    have the same relationship as

    Malay and Fijian.

    So, is Fijian clearly a different from Malay? Or there a some doubts...could be a dialect.

    I really love your self-trap. Many interesting places to explore.

    ReplyDelete
  117. "I’m, with a few others, r the proponent of clades to the linguistic classification. We see the similarity between language classes & animal kingdom evolution."

    "Proponent"? How can thick skinned can you be!!!!!

    Just look at what ridiculous things you have said so far!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  118. "I’m, with a few others, r the proponent of clades to the linguistic classification. We see the similarity between language classes & animal kingdom evolution."

    So what language do you discuss or propose your ideas in? English?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  119. I say, found another trap he made himself. ANOTHER SELF TRAP!!!!!!!!!

    "So the mammals as a whole form a clade of which the primates as a whole r a subgroup."

    So are primates also a clade?

    Are vertebrates also a clade?

    What about tetrapods - are they also a clade?

    Please respond....


    YOU ARE SUCH A CLUMSY IDIOT!!!!

    YOU FALL INTO NOT ONE BUT TWO TRAPS YOU MAKE YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  120. "So to put thing in a simplest manner, English is a language clade by itself. Within it, there r England English, American English & Manglish etc. For that matter, any ‘descendants’ of English belong to that clade & nothing else. All these ‘descendants’ r not true language by themselves, they r only the sub-set. Maybe ‘dialect’ is a more correct term. "

    So American English is a "descendant" of English.

    Is English itself a "descendant" of something else? This is very basic knowledge. Someone who dares to call himself a "proponent" should be able to answer easily...



    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!
    IGNORAMUS!!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  121. "Hope this clarify the mess caused."

    Clarify? Clarify!!! How can you clarify when you don't know!!!!!!!!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  122. "Ignorance is indeed a bliss!"

    This means you are one HAPPY dude!

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete
  123. Hey Anon 10:47 AM, March 11, 2011

    Lu suka cakap orang hp6 la ... saya tengok semua yang lu tulis itu... macam lu itu yang hp6....

    Dah lah tak tahu...belajar sikit saja ingat lu pandai!

    Orang tahu lah, bodoh! Buat malu lu sendiri saja lah...

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

    ReplyDelete