... and a 2011 post Replying to Nik Nazmi Nik Ahmad's reply though in this, the 2nd one, only to a certain extent while at the same time attacking Azmin Ali, wakakaka, as follows (extract):
PKR under Azmin Ali (and let's not mince words here, he IS in charge of your party) has shown an amazing talent and consistent inclination to offend the very people that PKR/PR should in fact be seeking support from. While I have criticised Anwar I recognize some good he has and can continue to do for PR, to make it a cohesive alternative party to the BN for Malaysians to choose as their government, but I fear Azmin Ali and his obsessive need to control, dominate and dictate terms all the time to PR and indeed PKR leaders will inevitably pull Anwar down and disintegrate PR.
Believe it or not, I am fairly certain as far as I can recall correctly in my 10 years of blogging, I have never attacked nor condemned him for his two cases of sodomy (because I don't know what's true or not), focussing instead on his reformasi bull.
And I am certainly not going to comment on his current conviction either, nor on whether I believe he is a sodomite or not. Fact is I DON'T KNOW what to believe! And I have to admit I wasn't diligently following his case.
But my stern position against accepting Anwar as a true reformer or a political leader in the mode of Lim Kit Siang, the late Karpal Singh, the late Tan Chee Khoon and the late D.R Seenivasagam has been based on what I have learnt about his 16 years as one very powerful UMNO leader who was conspicuously silent about political reforms while he was luxuriating in power (even leaving aside his less than admirable ministerial policies and conduct), yes, not one single peep from him.
He only started screeching reformasi when he was thrown out of UMNO.
My unfavourable assessment of him has been vindicated by his series of antics when he was on the other side of the fence, in federal opposition - the shameful undemocratic 916, the even more shameful Taiwan frog hunt, the annoying hijacking of Bersih 3, the selfish Kajang Satay, etc, all very lamentable and most unreformasi or very deformasi.
Some have attacked me in their current frustration about Anwar's conviction, that I must be happy about him going to prison as if I am enjoying Xmas, New Year, etc all rolled into one.
I find such petulance childish, immature and in fact sad. I take no joy in anyone's disadvantage, misfortune or tragedy, though politically I will not accept hypocrisy nor bullshit, not even from DAP.
Legally, Anwar Ibrahim will now be imprisoned, until and unless Pakatan wins the next election to form a new Pakatan government and either order his re-trial or seek a pardon from HM for him, or until he finishes his term which with good behaviour reduction, could well be around 3 years' time.
There is always Sodomy 3.....akan datang
ReplyDeleteA long awaited badminton match was played out between two players this morning. The umpire faulted one of the players when the shuttle landed outside the boundaries of the court, passed under the net, failed to pass the net, touched the ceiling, was hit with two strokes, and when he invaded the opponent's court. The other player was exempted from following almost all the rules of the game.
ReplyDeleteBut that's not a trial !
-huaren
i dun have the statistic, u might. i think u criticize anwar more than najib, n pkr more than umno. that is yr prerogative, however i still find it amusing if u insist u r not prejudice toward anwar n pkr, likewise if helen claim that she love hannah n dap.
ReplyDeletebeing one that possess a crystal ball in cases like mh370 n altantuya n many more, dun u find it a bit odd u talk less on anwar verdict? do u really know more facts in the above mentioned as compare to anwar case? be frank, from the bottom of yr heart again, do u think even if anwar did it, does he deserve 5 years sentence? do u believe saiful did insist NO as happen in most rape case?
i diagree with that anon many radical viewpoint, but at the least i agree with him that anwar did bring major changes to our political landscape, which most politician u mentioned in yr article can't or unable to achieve. n anwar is more consistent than the manchaster turncoat in the last 10 years.
i feel sad for anwar family, stay strong.
HY, once again you are putting words in my mouth with your " u insist u r not prejudice toward anwar n pkr". when did I say that, ever?
DeleteIn fact, I have said unequivocally in my 1st sentence of this post that "Undeniably I have been against Anwar Ibrahim though to my own surprise I have defended him on a couple of occasions"
I've never been interested in anwar's private affairs and have only focussed on his claim of reforms, which I've never believed. Thus I have paid scant attention to the two sodomy cases.
However, since you insist, I have to admit I was not impressed by anwar when he refused to take an oath on the quran that he didn't do it as saiful had done swearing anwar did it.
If I am not mistaken I read somewhere that Dr Asri advocated both taking the oath on the Quran and be done with that. Alas, I couldn't find the news article to show you this.
because he dared not take the holy oath anwar even went to the extent of inviting Gus Dur to come to Malaysia to explain why taking an oath on the Quran was unnecessary. But PAS Dr Mujahid Yusof commented on the damaging Saiful’s oath: “We’re still not sure of the impact. Morality is a serious thing to the Malays and Saiful did swear on the Quran and he did it in a mosque.”
PKR shipped in truckloads of Islamic ulamas to explain to the masses in Permatang Pauh why Muslims shouldn’t be swearing to Allah (swt) on such an issue. But obviously they weren’t effective because they were political allies of Anwar. I also heard from a sweetie that Pak Haji Hadi Awang didn’t perform to the whole nine yards in his supposed defence of Anwar Ibrahim in this respect.
then there was the comical episode of Ustaz Porigi Ramlang, a pro anwar cleric in kl who denigrated saiful's oath, and based on nothing more than saiful's poor pronunciation of an arabic term. During the swearing, Saiful mispronounced one of the Islamic words because he had it written down in Malay instead of Arabic.
Now, I would be hilarious over this point if I can be sure I won’t offend my Muslim friends. But I need to ask: would Allah (swt) have cared one iota if one of his creations had mispronounced an Arabic word in a supposedly serious undertaking, a sumpah laknat (swearing in the face of divine retribution)?
This is precisely the sort of irrelevant hair-splitting arguments which ignored the solemn religious nature of the oath-taking that trivializes the majesty of Islam – and, alas, it’s by a cleric.
Ramlang admitted he wasn’t the Imam Besar of the mosque or an ulama, yet he raised an issue of a mispronounced Arabic word, which we note that even the PAS ulamas didn’t raise ..... which has been why I reckon the ustaz has trivialized an oath taking.
At the PKR press conference (not unlike PI Balasubramnaiam's 1st SD press conference, wakakaka), Ustaz Ramlang believed that Saiful’s oath taking was politically motivated because it was done on the eve of nomination day (for the PP by-election). Then he asserted he was not representing any political party by making his revelations.
And we are informed by Malaysiakini that Ramlang started appearing in PKR ceramahs in Permatang Pauh today a la PKR roadshow, revealing his role and his view on Saiful's swearing.
So not representing any political party eh ... wakakaka.
Anyway, that's the extent of my views on whether anwar did it or not, which in the final analysis still don't interest nor disgust me. Look I live in Oz where gay relationships abound and the Mardi Gras takes place every year (mind you, I don't take part, wakakaka)
I did also acknowledged Anwar's contribution though I detest his 916, etc. How could one be a reformer when one dabbled in frogology - that's teh sort fo bull I can't accept.
I too feel sorry for the family especially the wife. HY, I'm not completely heartless
R u a atheist for label ONLY????
DeleteWhen did swearing on a man-writen holy book become so important for u???
& the saddest part is u kept ranting & propagating on this swearing thinggy as if it's the ONLY consideration for his defense!
Indeed, deep down u do hold a BIG grinding stone on yr shoulder every time AI is been mentioned.
Dont show yr crocodile's tear. U need it, soon, for bigger thing!!!!!
croc tears for Anwar? Don't talk cock, wakakaka
Deleteyr instant selective amnesia!
Delete'I too feel sorry for the family especially the wife. HY, I'm not completely heartless'
This is a 'priceless' crocodile tear, from u to the AI. yes?????
BTW, soon u should be ranked a the same as that mamak who cried the music of 'A young man’s life has been wrecked, changed forever — Muhammad Shafee Abdullah'
Another Melayu terlampau Melayu via institutionalization of race through FedCon's back door.
Can use yr crystal ball to foretcast whether this rising tide of mamak in bolihland govt administration rank & file is a foreclosing sign that foretell the same downfall of the Malacca sultanate?
During that time, the sultanate were also dominated by mamak......
So keep wakakaking lah. u need it!!!
watch my lips - I wrote "croc tears for Anwar? Don't talk cock, wakakaka"
Deleteso where was my croc tears for ANWAR?
The family is different as they very seldom manmanlai, wakakaka
'The family is different as they very seldom manmanlai, wakakaka'
DeleteOooh... u forget about yr past rants about Kak Wan & Nurul??????
Selective dementia turns Alzheimer's?
Must give it to u...sigh...lah. Ouch...ouch..
BTW, u still havent answer the question of why a declared atheist SUDDENLY hold swearing on a man-wirtten 'holybook' to be a judge of character?
DeleteWakakakaking...lah
I wonder whether there is such a creature knows as godless hypocrite??? Mmm....
that's what I said "seldom" as opposed to "never" manmanlai, wakakaka
DeleteAnwar is a Muslim and if a Muslim feared swearing on the Quran, well, what does that say, wakkaka
So, a crook who swears on his/her religion's relic is a good follower of that religion. Yes?????
DeleteYa loh, could be good follower but crook still. No???????
BTW, what do u call someone who try to use semantic to twist his arguments?
Ktemoc??????
Wakakaka....sigh..
I'm not "completely" heartless :):)
Deleteno i never said u r "completely heartless, i dun even ever claim u r heartless, i merely said u r bias.
eng is never my 1st language, but i would try my best to be precise n careful, n that is y i wrote "i still find it amusing if, only "if".
whether anwar is a true reformer or not is not really relevant in this case, just like the turncoat tulis panjang lebar abt anwar reformasi oso sound not relevant at this juncture, n he dare to call himself a true liberal?
firstly pray tell would anwar swearing change the outcome? secondly if aw kao is a personal preference, then what abt gay? thirdly do u think anwar deserve 5 years? lastly dun u agree this is a selective prosecution?
u defend najib with uncountable writes, but i rarely see u do the same on anwar sodomy case when almost every non muslim (from a non muslim pov) think this is a ridiculous trial.
in my opinion, u r bias, though not "completely" heartless :)
HY, I did NOT say that had Anwar swore on the Quran he didn't do it, he would have receive a more favourable outcome in the court case.
DeleteI only touched on subject because you asked me "be frank, from the bottom of yr heart again, do u think even if anwar did it, does he deserve 5 years sentence? do u believe saiful did insist NO as happen in most rape case?"
I then wrote: "However, since you insist, I have to admit I was not impressed by anwar when he refused to take an oath on the quran that he didn't do it as saiful had done swearing anwar did it."
Added to his refusal to take the holy oath (sumpah laknat) he also refused to give evidence under oath. These refusals show up badly for him as not supporting his claim to his innocence. I must stress I don't know the Truth even up to now, though I can only based my personal thoughts on what he has done to defend himself and what he refused to do.
Whether he deserves the 5-year sentence is not something I have expertise in and thus can't comment. In court sentences I can only compare or contrast, say, two stark differences, like in the case of the bloke who had a "bright future" and got away with statutory raoe while a Chinese who around the same time did the same heinous crime got the due punishment,
For example, as Anwar was convicted under a charge of seemingly 'consensual' sodomy I believe Saiful should thus be similarly charged. Saiful of course claimed he was "forced" (non-consensual sodomy) but I suspect it's easier to charge someone for consensual sodomy then non-consensual sodomy because then there would be no necessity to show evidence of "rape". So I'd say that since the prosecution chose to charge Anwar with under the penal code of consensual sodomy, for which he has been convicted, Saiful should also be similarly charged and convicted, even though Saiful claimed he was forced to accede to Anwar's demand.
KT.... read Another Brick In The Wall - Can an innocent wiener end you up as Anwar cellmate? Why is Anwar charged and convicted and why Saiful goes free?
Delete- hasan
haiya anhea, sumpah laknat mana ada laku in the civil court.
Deletenot talking about its laku-ness in civil courts but rather its impact on public perceptions, perceptions of neutrals, not the faithful-converted or the enemies
Deletethanks hasan, though I am perplexed by 377A's limitation to only anus and mouth - what about other orifices? wakakaka
Deleteyou know, if such crimes do not have statotory time limitations and their sentences are accummulative, some of us could be facing several terms of life imprisonments, wakakaka
'impact on public perceptions, perceptions of neutrals'
Deletedid you see it that way? do you mean the holy oath as you named it had been used as an apparatus to measure the impact? GLORY BE TO ALLAH!. fyi, in the 'gasak belakang' case, there are a lot of submitters who are neutrals. i would not be impressed (rather despise) if pak syeikh took the oath as much as you were not when he refused. to me, it (oath-taking) would tantamount to making a mockery of allah's words. how could it be possible to 'appoint' allah as judge when both the prosecution and defense teams were armed with plenty of evidence? so, the holy oath will never be applicable for the case such as this.
It is good that Anwar is going to become a jailbird. Time for a Pakatan realignment less the old farts in all three parties.
ReplyDeleteI have considered this case carefully and I agree with the Federal Court’s decision that Anwar is guilty. Like HY and KT I feel sad and sorry for Dr Wan and family. Like HY, I do feel the punishment should be reduced though.
ReplyDeleteThere is no denial of Section 377B i.e. it was a voluntary act. Anwar is facing hukum dunia/manusia now and he will have to face hukum akhirat/Allah later.
Saiful did not have to face hukum dunia/manusia but he too will have to face hukum akhirat/Allah later.
The very least Anwar could plead to God – I have been punished by hukum manusia/dunia, so please have some mercy on me in your punishment in the hereafter.
For Saiful, well, only God will know what is his intention in exposing Anwar’s illicit act and ipso facto his very own too. IMHO you may escape hukum dunia/manusia but you will certainly have to face hukum akhirat/Allah in the hereafter.
To Anwar: Is this your BEGINNING? Or is this the END? If you think this is your BEGINNING, be strong, stay fit and don’t give up on your faith. If it were destined that you will be our PM one day, you would be then. I hope to see you again one day, my friend…
- hasan
If sodomy is a crime-consensual or otherwise-and Anwar was convicted for that-isn't Saiful just as guilty of sodomy because it was "Consensual" not coerced -or does it apply to only the perpetrator or "penetrator" and not the "penetra tee"??
ReplyDeleteThe Federal Court yesterday made some far reaching conclusions yesterday. Due to their being the Apex Court, may affect future unrelated cases for many years.
ReplyDelete- A guy doesn't shit for 3 days, and pristine sperm can be extracted from his arse. This is credible.
- A sealed evidence bag is cut open and sealed back - all done by one person alone in an office - is still acceptable evidence.
The court accepts his explanation - "no intention to tamper with the evidence" at face value.
Any policeman can do that in future, as long as he can testify he had "no intention to tamper with the evidence" .
-\...... plenty others....
Justice was not done yesterday.....
Anwar Ibrahim can go to jail with his head held high. ...
He may never be Prime Ministher, but I don't think that is the end of Anwar's story.
I am Anwar
Totally agree with you....Fed Court have certainly set new parameters for future cases ( not necessarily for sodomy cases only ) as to what is credible, what is not credible, etc....
Deletethe part about the "...plenty others"
- how about the first first doctor Dr Othman who examined Saiful and reported that Saiful said he was penetrated with a blunt object in his ars*hole, and not by a human penis of Anwar or any other person ? This doctor was not called ( not allowed to ? ) to take the stand ? In what way is this doctor not credible ?
- right off the bat, the judge opening sentences aver that Saiful is a credible witness. Is a person who is 6' tall with a hefty build and broad shouldered credible when he claimed being raped by a 60+ year old man who is much shorter and not in the best of health ? It would be different if he had said he was a willing partner ( in fact, some facts pointed or hinted he was a 'honey trap') who in fact brought along his own KY Jelly ! He himself admitted that ky jelly lessen the pain ? hahahaha
- is it credible when he claimed he got to meet up with the then DPM to get a scholarship ? How many low achiever get to meet up with a DPM for a scholarship in this country ?
- is it credible for an average dude like Saiful to simply pick up the phone to speak to the then IGP Musa Hassan prior to lodging a sodomy case ?
-is it credible for Saiful who claimed to be an innocent employee being raped by his former boss to meet up with a senior police officer in a hotel room prior to this sodomy case? And that senior cop was the very official who involved in Anwar's first Sodomy case ?
.....and plenty others.....hehehe
I practiced law for 30 years, and have been following the Anwar Ibrahim trial closely.
ReplyDeleteThe article in the Malaysian Insider - short and well written, speaks for what many feel after the verdict yesterday.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/sideviews/article/anwars-guilty-verdict-calls-for-a-rethink-puthan-perumal
KT has pointed out, time and time again, and I agree with him, that AI isn't a saint.
ReplyDeleteAI, however, managed to bring together parties, PAS and DAP, which have very divergent views and practices, to fight the common foe, BN. Effectively united all the opposition forces to challenge the government for a chance to rule Malaysia. Before this, most people had taken for granted that Putrajaya Dream by the opposition was something unthinkable. But not anymore, as 52 % of the electorates in GE13 had shown nothing is impossible.
Thank you, AI, for the Putrajaya Dream !
-huaren
I dunno why you guys want to defend Anwar. He was an extremist from student days as head of ABIM. May be he did nor maybe he did not. After all he did give himself that black eye when when was he handcuffed etc by a kind Polis (for his own protection, I might add). But Anwar, of all the people, should know sodomy is not allowed as that bit belongs to the Kerajaan. Meanwhile we continue to be screwed. Cannot complain lah as that is the right of the Kerajaan.
ReplyDelete'After all he did give himself that black eye when when was he handcuffed etc by a kind Polis'
Deleteya ka?
This is the one that has merempit from the blur-sotong setempurung!!!!!
DeleteBack to reading Kosmo lah!!
Anon 11.53 is using reverse psychology sacarsm here. We all know who gave Anwar the black eye, and subsequently Mahathir (aided by Rafidah) was trying to sell the story of the how Anwar self-inflicted the wound, using bottle etc....
DeleteThe 'bit belongs to Kerajaan' is a reference to a joke about someone who was convicted by the court for doing it using his wife's behind, and when the court fined him, i.e. he has to pay the government for that use, his response was "ok, depan saya punya, tapi blakang gomen punya kah?"
Correct..Correct..Correct..Correct..Correct..Correct.Correct..Correct..
ReplyDeleteNo doubt Anwar has played rough and dirty in the past.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you expect when you go up against gangstas and barbarians like UMNO and the rest of Barisan Nasional ? Nice guys get swalled up for entrees.
Anwar has payed a high price in the dirtiest court proceeding ever.
But more Anwars will rise.
1998 - 1999 again......my office was near one of the streets frequented by the protestors. The stench of tear gas and anti-personnel chemicals used in police water cannon came through the building air-conditioning system now and then.
ReplyDeleteLike many other city-dwellers, I found the protests annoying as well as potentially threatening.
KL Chinese have very frightening memories of street political violence.
I considered Anwar Ibrahim as just another stinking UMNO operative who had fallen out with the Mafioso Godfather. Good riddance when he went to jail.
16 years later....I want to thank Anwar , among others, for helping to wake me up from my comfortable Middle-class slumber. We need to take back this country from the Crooks who run it now. And we need to help wake up others who are still asleep or oblivious.
Anwar is a flawed man, but also a master communicator.
And I thank him personally for shaking me out of my comfort zone.
This time, tears were shed by many when the verdict was read out.
Many of us instinctively understand it takes a former Malay Ultra to have the credibility to spark the winds of change, so I now do not hold his past against him.....so Anwar it is...warts and all..
Ye...ye..tabik
DeleteMalaysians see political conspiracies everywhere....
ReplyDeleteNajib supporters see a conspiracy to bring him down via. 1MDB
They also see a conspiracy to accuse him of being responsible for Altantuya's death.
Anwar's supporters see a conspiracy to put him in jail over Sodomy.
Hadi supporters see a conspiracy within PAS , supported by PKR to bring him down and replace him with a "liberal", which is a very rude word in PAS.
DAP probably has the least conspiracies floating around, or maybe I'm just out of touch with DAP internal infighting.
Why can't these Anwaristas just shut up and move on ?
ReplyDeleteLots of people have relatives, family members or friends in Sungai Buloh or Kajang prison.
They go through the full due process of law, get full legal representation. If found guilty, they just have to accept the sentence and go through the penalty.
One thing for sure....Ktemoc has some very strange, filthy and smelly bedfellows in his continuing vendetta against Anwar.
ReplyDeleteMaybe he has nothing to do with them....maybe he does...
may I correct your strange andn very silly childish suspicion - I've no vendetta against anyone, least of all Anwar Ibrahim. Consider me as a De-BS blogger wakakaka
DeleteAnwar Ibrahim is in prison. But there is no escaping his presence, which will continue to haunt BN and UMNO.
ReplyDeleteAzmin Ali will likely take the lead for PKR.
The unofficial political head of Anwar's family is now Nurul Izzah. Her mother has never really been a politician.
Watch the young lady - she will go very far.
She's very smart, well educated, very articulate like her father, and she's pretty - never underestimate that advantage with the 50% male voters.
If I would make a wager, my prediction is she will someday be Malaysia's first female Prime Minister, when UMNO finally gets kicked out....but not so soon.
they are 56 parliamentary seats in sabah and sarawak and pr (dap & pkr. pas dapat telor ayam) only won 9 in the last 13th g.e. bila bn boleh kalah?
DeleteBila BN boleh kalah ? Bila rakyat tak dapat makan...bila negara jadi bankrupt...which could happen when harga minyak is USD 20 and our debt touches 1 trillion ringgit. Make a guess in what year this will happen, wakakaka
DeleteWith cibai kaytee, BN will NEVER Kalah. Time to summon la madamme de guillotine
DeleteYou must fuckingly understand that this cibai kaytee is a pontificating, pretentious bastard...........and you can conclude that he is cibai worthless steaming pile of cow dung Got it...
ReplyDeleteNote by kaytee (blog owner, wakakaka): I've deleted cibai looes' 2nd part which was an cibai ad hominem attack against my family
that's the cibai-ness of looes' cibai mentality which shows cibai him as a cibai lousy loser, wakakaka
If you have met newton, you should know why.......Cibai
DeleteHeard of 3rd Newton law............Kaytee
When am I going to watch the debate between you and CL Flamiaris in aussie land?
Once upon a time , in a country long lost, Malaysia had a strong , independent Judiciary as well as Prosecution service. Harun Idris, former Selangor MB and one of the most powerful UMNO politicians was charged in 1976 and later found guilty of Criminal Breach of Trust for diverting Bank Rakyat money to fund the Mohammad Ali-Bugner boxing match in KL. Back in 1972 , Johor Crown Prince, later Sultan Iskandar was charged ........ [deleted by kaytee due to incorrect allegations - matey, don't get yourself and me wakakaka into trouble lah]
ReplyDeleteKaytee's note: This was what Wikipedia has on him:
In 1972, Mahmud was charged for causing assault with a mace to two men for overtaking his car and was convicted the following year.[65] A year later, reports also surfaced another similar attack upon a young couple, when Iskandar, together with his bodyguard, attacked them with chemicals and a mace after having offended him. Another alleged incident took place at about this time when Mahmud chained up two policemen in a dog kennel for a day after having angered him.[66]
Five years later, Mahmud was charged and convicted of manslaughter[67] after shooting and killing a man near his private helicopter whom he took to be a smuggler. In both cases, his father, Sultan Ismail, intervened and granted official pardons to Mahmud.[68][69][70] Similarly, his eldest son, Ibrahim Ismail, was convicted in the 1980s of shooting dead a man in a nightclub during a feud, but was quickly pardoned.[71]
In 1987, Sultan Iskandar was accused of causing the death of a golf caddy in Cameron Highlands by assault, following an incident in which the golf caddy laughed when the Sultan missed a hole. Abdul Rahman, Malaysia's first Prime Minister, pointed out that the Sultan (then the Agong) could not be prosecuted due to the immunity that was accorded to the rulers, yet he condemned Sultan Iskandar's actions at the same time. In the end the matter was let off without much public attention. The brother of the caddy – who also suffered injuries from the incident, being distressed from what he saw, subsequently ran amok in Kuala Lumpur and had to be quarantined in a mental hospital.[72][73]
Wah Law Wei....the late Sultan was like that kah ?
ReplyDeleteI heard his son is also getting a lot of people....concerned.....
don't want to get your blog into trouble, eh ?
Allah is great.
ReplyDeleteAnwar sodomised Saiful, which is a serious crime both In Islam and under secular law.
He must pay for his crime.
Come on, let's win GE14, minus AI !
ReplyDelete-huaren
Finally a chance for PR to start anew instead of the old coat patched with PKR, DAP and PAS colours that it is today.
DeleteHow about chopping the head of RPK? We don't thiis cibai royalists around. Let's start a french revolution
DeleteFuck la!
Why get violent? This is exactly the kind of stupidity which makes MANY MALAYSIANS disgusted with PKR and PAS.
Delete